John Chapman Interview

NARRATOR: John Chapman INTERVIEWER: Troy Reeves DATE: June 15, 1998 LOCATION: PROJECT: Greenbelt Pioneers START INTERVIEW TR: 1998, I’m here interviewing John Chapman at his house in Hailey. This tape is for the Greenbelt Committee project for Boise Parks and Recreation. John, when did you first become involved with the Greenbelt Committee and why did you choose to become involved? JC: I don’t remember exactly the dates, but it was, I was involved initially around the early ‘70s. And at the time I originally got involved, I had been appointed by the mayor, John [sic: Jay] Amyx, as a member of the Planning and Zoning Commission of Boise City. And at that time the Greenbelt Committee, which was in existence, had a member from the Planning and Zoning Commission as a member of the Greenbelt Committee, so that’s how I originally got involved. And, of course, I was very much interested in preserving the river and I was known, sort of, as a conservationist at that time, and so I believe that’s probably one of the reasons I was selected to represent the Planning and Zoning Commission on the Greenbelt Committee. TR: What was your first impression of the committee? JC: Well, I was very excited about the proposal. However, at the time I got involved, it was still a very new concept and there had been already several battles, even legally, to condemn property that was key to the existence of the Greenbelt. And, fortunately, we had a City Council at that time who was very supportive of the concept, and there was at least, I believe, three condemnation lawsuits that had been filed to acquire some of the major parcels along the river across from Ann Morrison Park. So, when I was initially involved, these lawsuits had pretty well been, with the exception of the cement factory, had been completed. And then we continued to support that acquisition of land along the river so that we could acquire a public access on both sides of the river through Boise. I think we had, several of us, had seen what had been done in Eugene, Oregon, along the river and we felt that we should definitely preserve the river. We particularly were worried that the Boise River was going to become like the Portneuf River in Pocatello, that was just a cement sewer, basically, through the city, and we wanted to most certainly avoid that and to preserve the fisheries and the wildlife as well as the public access to the river. TR: Do you recall your first thoughts about the idea of a Greenbelt? Did you feel that the Greenbelt would help or hinder the city or community? JC: Well, there was no question in my mind that it would be a tremendous asset to the city, and I think that what was most difficult for us to convince was how wonderful a Greenbelt would be as to the property owners along the river. They were very much opposed to the Greenbelt concept because they wanted to do what they wanted to with their property along the river. However, at that time, their properties were not orientated towards the river but away from the river, and the land along the river was used as dumping spots for their garbage, basically, and there was no way to get through. And, so, we had to convince a lot of people—and it was a very difficult job—that the Greenbelt was not only going to enhance their property but was going to increase the value of their property, which certainly proved to be the case. But it was a hard battle, and I had some difficult times with particular landowners and particular people who were absolutely opposed to the Greenbelt concept. I had some people that never spoke to me again after we took—we had to fight for the Greenbelt Ordinance, specifically, in order to get the, to preserve the access along the river. And that was one of the biggest battles I was involved in. TR: Can you describe what the Greenbelt Ordinance is? JC: Well, in order to keep people from building down to the water’s edge and over the water, we felt there should be a setback in order to preserve the Greenbelt space and to allow enough of a Greenbelt area to provide access for pedestrians and people to walk along the river and enjoy the river. The original ordinance that we supported was a hundred-foot setback from the water’s edge, and we did everything to get that through, but the best we could compromise on was a fifty-foot setback. So, the Planning and Zoning Commission first proposed the ordinance with the Greenbelt Committee’s support and assistance, and then we were able to get the City Council to pass it. But there were a lot of public hearings involved with passing the ordinance and, as I said, there was an awful lot of people who did not support the Greenbelt concept initially. And so, we had a lot of battles and a lot of very heated public meetings regarding this particular ordinance, but we were very happy that we ultimately got it passed through the City Council, and I think that that’s what really saved the Greenbelt was the setback ordinance that basically established the Greenbelt along the water’s edge throughout the city. TR: Approximately how long did you serve on the committee? JC: I served on the committee for approximately eight years or thereabouts. I was chairman of the Greenbelt Committee for two years of that period and that was when, you know, again, some of these major battles were fought. I feel very personally satisfied about my part on the Greenbelt Committee, because I think of all the projects I’ve worked on throughout my life, the Greenbelt was one of the most satisfying and successful projects that I was involved with personally. It was a great project. And the thing that’s so rewarding is looking back and seeing what we accomplished and what it has meant to Boise, because it’s been a tremendous asset to the people of Boise. TR: Why did you decide to leave the committee? JC: Well, I think that I had pretty much achieved the ordinance passage. I think one of the most satisfying achievements that I had some responsibility for was creating Shoreline Park. That was the old cement factory that I alluded to earlier. This was a terribly ugly eyesore there, and we were able to acquire it but through a court battle—the title to it. But I’ll tell you, to convert a cement factory into a Greenbelt area or park was a very difficult [laughs] proposition, and it was a real challenge for us on the Greenbelt Committee. And, you know, how do you walk through a cement plant? Well, it was, the idea was very novel, and we basically covered the cement plant with dirt, then we put tunnels through some of the parts of the factory that we couldn’t get rid of because of the thick cement walls, and it turned out to be one of the most beautiful areas of the Greenbelt was Shoreline Park. And that was kind of my crowning achievement as chairman of the Greenbelt Committee was the opening of the Shoreline Park, which, as you know, is right near the Post Office now, across from Ann Morrison Park. And we also created a bike shop so people could rent bicycles there, and it really provided a wonderful park for the city, and that’s, I think, one of my crowning achievements. So, I really felt very good about what I had done, that we had gotten the ordinance passed, that the Greenbelt concept was pretty well accepted, and I felt that was an appropriate time for me to retire from the Greenbelt Committee. TR: I think Morgan Masner was talking to me about the cement— JC: [Laughs] TR: How there’s still a spot you can see in the river where they just dumped all their cement in and the river’s just— JC: Right, it was just awful, and if we had allowed that to continue, it would have just destroyed the whole beauty of the Greenbelt along that area, which is right in the center of Boise. So, again, that was a tremendous accomplishment, was to acquire the title to the cement plant. Then, to work with a landscape architect to design it so that it was going to be attractive was a real challenge, as I said, and they came up with some wonderful ideas, and I think it turned out to be just one of the best parts of the Greenbelt. TR: So, then you served mostly through the ‘70s? JC: Right, that’s correct. TR: What are your feelings about today’s Greenbelt? Do you think it’s a benefit or a detriment to Boise and what are— JC: Well, well, obviously I’m a great supporter of the Greenbelt concept [laughs], and I think that what they’ve accomplished since I was on the Greenbelt Committee is wonderful, and they are, of course, extending it all the time. And I think the original concept and idea was that it would be a continuous Greenbelt from Barber Dam all the way through to the Eagle Island, and I understand they’re making real headway towards that goal. One of the biggest problems was getting the attention of Garden City. That was another battle that we fought on the Greenbelt Committee. We had to meet with various members of the City Council at Garden City. I remember meeting with Margaret Mockwitz, who was the mayor and later on the Council, and it was very difficult to convince them that, if they would just orientate their developments towards the river rather than away from it, that it would be a great enhancement to their city, and I was very happy to read a few years ago where they have finally agreed to cooperate with the Greenbelt. And it’s going to be preserved along Garden City as well, but it was a very hard nut to crack [laughs] initially. I think one of the biggest problems in fighting for the ordinance was dealing with such big corporate entities, such as Morrison-Knudsen. They fought us tooth and nail because they owned the property just east of the Broadway Bridge, and they were thinking that they were going to have a restaurant that was going to be built on pylons over the Boise River or overlooking the river, and they were very much opposed to our fifty-foot setback ordinance. And they hired lawyers to fight us, and they put up a real battle and, of course, they also organized some of the other property owners along there to fight us, and I think that Morrison-Knudsen today would be probably one of the first corporations that would admit that the Greenbelt is a wonderful concept and really improved the value of their property. But it was a hard battle; it was not easy in those days to convince people of the positive steps that would improve Boise by passing the Greenbelt Ordinance. So, it was one of the biggest battles politically that we fought, and we did a lot of work towards getting the support of the people. We took the various members of the Council to lunch, and we talked to people and put on programs and civic clubs to get people’s attention and support, and it was an uphill battle there during those early years to get the public to accept the concept. But I think now it’s probably one of the most valuable projects that the City has ever entered into, and it’s a great asset. Again, reading the Statesman about the Boise River Festival and the part that the Greenbelt has played in that endeavor is really very satisfying as well. And the Boise River Festival, of course, adopted the river as being such an important asset to Boise, and that was what we were trying to convince people about back in the ‘70s [laughs], and it wasn’t easy to do that. TR: So, is it kind of nice to see the Boise River Festival? JC: It is exciting to me, just exciting to see that the Boise River is what’s important now to Boise itself. TR: Could you maybe briefly go through what a committee meeting was like? I mean, I’ve read the minutes, so I kind of know what the minutes say, but what is, being there, how was a meeting set up, where was it held, what did you discuss? JC: Well, again, the major issues when I was there initially was how we were going to preserve the right-of-way, and there was a lot of debate about that. Again, the concept of the Greenbelt Ordinance is what we came up with. Again, the original concept was a hundred feet, which I’m sorry we didn’t acquire, but at least we were able to, through political compromise, get the fifty foot. And these were some of the early, in the early days, the debate over how we were going to preserve the Greenbelt. And I think we came up with a real good solution to not allow any construction or any building whatsoever within this fifty-foot setback area, and I think while we were waiting to develop the Greenbelt along those areas, we were preventing any construction or other buildings being built to impede the Greenbelt and the access along the river. And I think that the ordinance accomplished that, and it kept landowners from building over what would be the Greenbelt area. TR: Do you recall any person or persons you thought of as being particularly important in promoting the Greenbelt concept? JC: Well, I think one of the number one supporters of the Greenbelt concept—and he worked hand-in-hand with me initially in these early days—and that was Earl Reynolds. And Earl was a tremendous supporter of the Greenbelt concept, and I admire him today as well for his continual, continuous working with the Greenbelt Committee and the concept of preserving the Boise River. But he’s a tremendous man and certainly one of the fathers of the Greenbelt, and I feel it a great honor to be among his friends and among the fathers of the Greenbelt [laughs] initially, because we all worked very hard towards this objective. I think that some other members of the Greenbelt Committee that I worked with—Gay Davis was, in the early days, a real supporter of the Greenbelt Concept, and she really supported the Greenbelt. Ken Pursley, who was another—I think he was the chairman of the Greenbelt Committee immediately after my term was up. I think Ken became chairman of the Boise Greenbelt Committee, and I think all of us were dedicated to achieving that Greenbelt system throughout the valley. TR: What role did City leaders or staff play in supporting the Greenbelt Committee? JC: I think that they were great supporters. As I said before, the City Council itself really supported the concept because, without their taking the initial step of agreeing to condemn land for the Greenbelt access was a tremendous step by the City fathers. And the City Council took a lot of political beatings over it, just because it was not necessarily that popular initially. Nobody could really see what a tremendous asset it was going to be to the City at the beginning, but the City Council supported us, Planning and Zoning Commission, the Greenbelt Committee—we all worked towards that, and the City Council had to ultimately pass that Greenbelt Ordinance over a lot of vocal opposition and a lot of very heated public hearings and sessions. So, I think that the City Council were very supportive of this concept. And the staff worked hand-in-hand with us, too. They were—they believed firmly in the Greenbelt concept, and they gave us a lot of assistance and worked many, many hours with us to achieve initially the passage of the ordinance. I really consider the passing of that ordinance a big step towards achieving the Greenbelt as it is today. TR: As I read through some of the minutes and done some background research, it seems to me that the Greenbelt Committee and the interested parties tried to strike a balance between the recreational aspects—the bikers, the walkers, the runners—the economic aspects—developers, houses— JC: Yes. TR: And then later on an environmental aspect. By that I mean, habitat, wildlife habitat. JC: Right. TR: Do you see this balance—how do you see this balance and, I guess, how do you see this balance? JC: Well, I think this balance is very important because not only bikers, runners, just sightseers, and then preserving the nature along the area—it all works together to create a wonderful environment for the city. I’d like to tell you one little story about protecting the wildlife and some of the things that went on during this period. We found out—the members of the Greenbelt Committee one time—that the Barber Dam, who had been owned by a private individual, was going up for auction because the owner had a judgment lien against him and there was a Sheriff’s sale involved. And we were very much concerned that, unless a public body got ahold of that dam and repaired it, that it would wash out and destroy all of the wildlife habitat east of the Barber Dam itself, which was a wonderful wildlife area. So, a group of us on the Greenbelt Committee—not the Greenbelt Committee itself but a group of individual members of the Greenbelt Committee—decided that we had to preserve the Barber Dam in order to preserve the wildlife habitat along the river. So, I’m an attorney and I formed what was called the Boise River Conservancy, and it was a nonprofit corporation, and Art Troutner came up with some money to support the endeavor and Gay Davis was involved in it, and anyways, we incorporated the Boise River Conservancy, we went to the Sheriff’s sale, bought the [laughs] dam, but then we ended up with the ownership of the dam and we were a little concerned with our own personal liability if it did really go out, because all the irrigators and farmers would probably sue us all, but, because we were certainly not in a financial position to repair it. I think what we were really after was to get the City or the County or some other public body—maybe the State—to take over the responsibility of repairing the dam so we could preserve the river, the quality of the water, as well as the wildlife. So, what happened, which I think is kind of ironic and humorous in a way, but we couldn’t convince the City or the County to take the ownership over because they were scared about the liability. Well, we, not having a lot of money, failed to pay the taxes for two or three years [laughs] on the dam. And, so, ultimately, without being very careful about what they were doing, they foreclosed [laughs]—the County did—and took over the ownership [laughs] of the Barber Dam. And then, of course, realized what they had done when it was too late, and then they had to come up with the money to repair the Barber Dam [laughs], and now it’s a tremendous part of the Boise River Greenbelt system. So, that was another fun project that I was involved in as a member of the Greenbelt Committee at the time. TR: So, indirectly, it all worked out, it sounds like. JC: It all worked out very well. TR: Yes. [Telephone rings and tape is interrupted.] I just have a few more questions and they might sound a bit redundant. You’ve kind of answered them, but: What is your strongest memory about the Greenbelt Committee or the Greenbelt in general? JC: Well, again, I think that I pretty much covered some of those major points, but I think the passing of the ordinance, of course, was a real high point with my involvement. And with being both on the Greenbelt Committee and on the—and chairman of the Planning and Zoning Commission also, I was able to, through political organization, get support for the passage of that ordinance, and with the Greenbelt Committee’s support, we were able to convince the City Council, ultimately, to pass it and put it into effect. And I think that really saved the whole concept of the Greenbelt, because if we didn’t have that protection from—that fifty-foot strip protected from building and various improvements that developers could have done, we never could have afforded to buy that access if it had been covered by multi-million-dollar apartment buildings or restaurants or something. And, so, we were able to halt the development of the Greenbelt strip and the access area, which allowed us, ultimately, to then acquire and improve the Greenbelt for the public’s use. And I think that was, as I say, the high point of my involvement. Again, Shoreline Park, making a cement factory into a park [laughs], is quite a challenge in itself, and I’m so pleased with that, the way that turned out, and my personal involvement with that. And, so, it’s—wonderful to see what the Greenbelt is today and see what we were able to achieve by our initial work, to accomplish this wonderful event, because I think that, of all things that I’ve worked on, as I said, the Greenbelt was, I think, the biggest project that gave me the most satisfaction, and I think it’s a wonderful asset to the City of Boise, and we’ll always have it—that’s another thing. And so, I feel that the many hours and days and months and years that I spent on the Greenbelt initially was well worth it, in looking at it today and seeing what it’s going to be tomorrow. TR: You’ve talked a lot about a lot of things that you’re proud of. Were there any decisions that the Committee had to make, or you had to compromise on that you kind of wish you could have done different? JC: Well, the biggest thing was compromising on a fifty-foot setback rather than a hundred-foot setback. I personally felt very strongly that it should have been a hundred feet, but political reality was that it was not going to pass, again, because of the real opposition of the property owners, such as Morrison-Knudsen and some of the other major property owners along the river. They just couldn’t see that it was going to help them at all, where now they’re very happy, I think, that the Greenbelt exists and can see that what we had, what we were suggesting, was great for them as well. But it was a long process, and it was well worth the battles and the loss of friends, and we even had one public hearing where they threw tomatoes and other things at us one time, and trying to get this done, I mean, there was a lot of opposition. It’s hard to believe now that these people would feel so strongly against the Greenbelt concept, because I think now everybody’s pretty well accepted it as being a wonderful thing for Boise. But, in those days, it was not easy to convince people that the Greenbelt was best for them, but it certainly has turned out that way. TR: Yes. Maybe just one more question. One of the interviews I did, the person I interviewed mentioned the Greenbelt was just an advisory committee and how that frustrated him at times. Were you ever frustrated by things you tried to accomplish, and you didn’t get to because people just did what they wanted to? JC: Well, in my situation, it was a little bit different, because I was both on the Planning and Zoning Commission and the Greenbelt Committee. And, yes, the Greenbelt Committee advised us, basically, and then we advised the City Council, but the Greenbelt Committee and the Planning and Zoning Commission, really worked hand-in-hand to accomplish this project. For instance, Earl Reynolds, as a good example, served both on the Planning and Zoning Commission and the Greenbelt Committee, so the Greenbelt Committee, through our representation on the Planning and Zoning Commission, had a lot of clout. [Tape interrupts at 30:22, stops at 30:51, then resumes at 31:20.] …. Wanted to support the Greenbelt through the Planning and Zoning process, and then the City Council, who were very supportive, would basically go along with the recommendation of the Planning and Zoning Commission, so I think that the Greenbelt Committee had a lot more to say about it than you might think. I mean, even though they were an advisory committee, there was members, dual memberships, that allowed us to accomplish what we were after. TR: Just one more. Maybe if you could just sum up what the Greenbelt has meant to your life or how your membership on the Greenbelt Committee affected your life? JC: Well, I think everybody looks back on their life as to what is important and what their major accomplishments were, and I look back on my life and I see the Greenbelt Committee as probably one of the most rewarding and satisfying volunteer work that I have done in my lifetime. And particularly, seeing the Greenbelt today and what we were able to achieve back then, to allow this concept to develop and flourish is very rewarding to me and satisfying to me. And I really consider the Greenbelt Committee one of my major accomplishments, and it gives me a great deal of happiness to see that I had something to do with it and that I’m one of those fathers of the Greenbelt concept, because it’s certainly a remarkable asset to the city and the state and the country right now. TR: I want to thank you very much for your time. I do appreciate it. END INTERVIEW Transcribed by: Marlene Fritz Completed: 8/26/2019