00:00:01.690 - 00:00:20.620

Ok, so now we should be recording. Ok. So I have now. No, you're good. I think we're all set. I'm recording on my end and it beams out to the cloud and the powers that be take care of it and we download it later. So. Ok,

00:00:20.629 - 00:00:38.180

fine. It's pretty slick. Ok. Well, with that, um I'll just sort of dive into it and we'll just have a conversation. Does that sound OK to you? Sounds good? Ok. So this is a video and audio recorded oral history interview conducted the seventh day of March

00:00:38.189 - 00:00:56.319

of the year 2023. The interviewer is myself, Travis Jeffries, history programs manager with the Department of Arts History for the City of Boise, Idaho. I'm here on site at City Hall in Boise, Idaho. The interviewee has provided a signed legal release and I have also signed

00:00:56.330 - 00:01:13.790

the document which is right here in front of me. Thank you for doing that. The primary purpose of this interview is to discuss Boise's Chinese population, Boise's China Town and how urban renewal may have impacted Boise's Chinese and Chinese American residents. Uh As a reminder you

00:01:13.800 - 00:01:29.089

want to be in a room or a space that's free of excess noise. Are you in a good location currently? Yes. Excellent. Fantastic. Ok. I'm just gonna go through a couple of reminders here for, for the record. Um, so the role of the interviewer in an

00:01:29.099 - 00:01:49.709

oral history interview. So my role is primarily to listen and to really, to facilitate the conversation. And according to best practices within the oral history profession, uh interviewers are really kind of discouraged from interjecting their own thoughts and opinions and interrupting, especially. So, really my primary

00:01:49.720 - 00:02:04.389

goal is to kind of hear your opinions and reflections and so you'll forgive me in advance if it seems like I'm being sort of quiet or rather direct with my questions. Um In other words, I'm not gonna offer a lot of verbal feedback, but you may

00:02:04.400 - 00:02:19.052

see me offer other forms of feedback like, you know, nodding my head or something like that. Uh But just, just so you're aware that's nothing personal and that's just a normal part of the oral history process. It's just for me to kind of sit back, pose

00:02:19.063 - 00:02:34.166

the question and let you sort of take it from there. Um Now, now that's not to say that you can't ask for clarification or anything like that. I'm happy to do that. Um, ok, so there are certain things that, that you have uh rights to and

00:02:34.175 - 00:02:49.675

I want to remind you of that. So, and as an interviewee or sometimes what we refer to as a narrator that be you. In this situation, you have rights and these include the right to pause or stop the interview at any time and you can also

00:02:49.686 - 00:03:04.350

withdraw from the project at any time. You have the right to refuse to answer certain questions. So at any moment, if you're uncomfortable with anything, you just feel free, let me know and we'll just move right on to the next one. Ok. Ok. And you have

00:03:04.360 - 00:03:25.910

the right to edit or redact transcripts resulting from the interview. Now, if that sounds good to you, we'll proceed with the interview. Sounds good. All right. So the interview is taking place virtually via Zoom. Uh I'm joined by our interviewee. Can you please state and spell

00:03:25.919 - 00:03:51.440

your name for the record? It's William Aon W I L L I A ma H F O N G. Fantastic. Thank you. And where are you joining us from today, Mr Han? We're joining you from Roseville, California, Roseville, California. Ok. So if you're comfortable, can you

00:03:51.449 - 00:04:13.149

please state the names of your relatives, such as your parents and your grandparents? And even in this case, I would say your great grandparents, especially your great granddad. Well, my great granddad, um um he was known as a Chuck and uh he um he was, he

00:04:13.160 - 00:04:33.920

came over in 1865 uh from China and uh I read some of the history and they said he was from the Canton area, but my mom said that he actually came from an area outside of Canton, but he would just say Canton because uh uh to,

00:04:33.929 - 00:05:00.429

to make it simplify. And so, and my uh grandfather's name was Herbert. Um A and my dad's name was Gerald Herbert. A and um, when my great great grandfather came over to the United States, um his first name was Fong. Chuck. Chuck is uh our family

00:05:00.440 - 00:05:27.750

last name and um a actually um people are spelling it C H U C K but it was actually C H U E K I believe. Um um and uh the Immigration Department over here uh transferred his name around. So it our last name became our

00:05:27.760 - 00:05:53.079

first name uh his first name rather. So they made it Chuck a ah is a title. So it was a was what his um uh his real name was his. Um and and the immigration people turned it around. So consequently everyone else who came, came in

00:05:53.239 - 00:06:25.940

under a so um is a very un um uncommon last name. Um um My mom's name was Sarah. Uh her Chinese name was Sung Mekong and uh she was born. Um now it it there's two different versions of where she was born. What she told us

00:06:25.950 - 00:06:49.640

was that she was born in Shanghai. And um then in some of the history books that I've read, they said that she was born, born in uh Peking, which is now Beijing but um um we tend to all believe that it was uh near Shanghai. And

00:06:49.649 - 00:07:13.380

uh in her youth, she was um she was raised uh a lot of, of the time in Macau, which is just outside of Hong Kong. So consequently, she spoke um Mandarin and then she spoke Cantonese. And um she also uh spoke a tiny bit of Portuguese

00:07:13.390 - 00:07:39.720

also. And um her dad was um he was a professor and uh, uh, he also did some diplomatic work. So, um, when she actually got engaged and married my father, uh, she was stepping down in class a little bit. But, um, that's ok. Well, they deserved

00:07:39.730 - 00:08:05.410

each other. They were a great parents. They came on in 1947 and, uh, they came over on a, uh, a ship um, into, uh Seattle, I believe. And, uh, my mom was pregnant with my oldest sister. Um, my dad had been brought over to the United

00:08:05.420 - 00:08:31.450

States earlier as a child and he actually attended junior high school and high school, uh, here, uh, in Boise. Mhm. And, um, I believe that he was smart enough or someone was smart enough for him to become an, um, um, a naturalized citizen. And, uh, so

00:08:31.459 - 00:08:55.250

he, when he was sent back to China for his formal education to become an herbalist, uh, if he was not and, um, a nationalized citizen, he wouldn't be able to come back to the United States because of the, uh, exclusionary act at that time. Right. So,

00:08:55.260 - 00:09:20.059

um, he was able to come back and brought my mother and, uh, they started their family in Boise In 1927. And my oldest sister, Betty was born in 27 and along came seven more Children after that, of which I'm the next to the youngest. My, my brother

00:09:20.070 - 00:09:42.030

is, uh, is the youngest, um, by two years. I see. So I had five older sisters and, um, when I was raised, um, in Boise, uh, there was only three of them left in the house, the other two were married and gone. And, uh, so my

00:09:42.039 - 00:10:03.039

version is that I was picked on by my sisters and my sister's version is that they treated me well because I was a number one boy. So, but I bear the scars of, of my childhood. Yeah. You and me both Bill. Um, I had two older

00:10:03.049 - 00:10:23.539

brothers so I, I understand. But, um, my sisters took care of me. They, they, they taught me and my brother to respect women. And, uh, so I think that was part of our upbringing. Yeah. Well, that's fantastic. That, that's an incredible amount of information there. Bill.

00:10:23.549 - 00:10:42.130

I appreciate that. Um, now you mentioned that a couple of your sisters had, had sort of already left the home when I around the time that, yes, when I was young, when you were young, where, where did they go to? Um, one of my sisters got

00:10:42.140 - 00:11:05.049

married and moved to Chicago. And my, my older sister got married and moved to the Bay area of, um, California. Uh her husband, her, she met her husband, uh, when he was stationed at, um Mountain Home Air Force Base. And, um, he would come into Boise

00:11:05.059 - 00:11:26.429

for Mountain Home and he met my sister, she was um, a waitress at Fong's Tea Garden in downtown Boise. And so he courted her and they got married and uh actually of the seven kids, um six of us all worked at Fong Tea Garden at one

00:11:26.440 - 00:11:52.640

time or another. So, yeah, our, my mother's good, my mother and dad's good friend, Ben Fong was the owner. And um yeah, so it was, it was kind of part of our extended family. So, yeah, in the and in the Early 1960s, um when my dad was

00:11:52.650 - 00:12:15.869

having trouble uh getting herbs from China and uh consequently, his business was going down. Uh he and my mom both went to work for, for uh Bennet Garden too. My dad is a cook and my mom is a waitress and uh they would, he would work

00:12:15.880 - 00:12:40.960

there and also work at his office. Um they're as an herbalist too. And then finally in 1965, it, it just became uh to the point where he couldn't uh uh support the, the business and had to close because of um the scarcity of uh the Chinese

00:12:40.969 - 00:13:02.750

Earth coming in from, from China, uh, at that time, the United States had pretty much embargoed all the, uh, you know, the herbs and my, my dad was trying to buy it through Canada. But, uh, it was really expensive and, uh, um, he just, um, you

00:13:02.760 - 00:13:27.479

know, just couldn't do it. So. Right. So, in 65 they closed up everything and, uh, they moved to California to be with my oldest sister and because I was the number one son, I had uh I had to leave Boise to take him to California. And

00:13:27.489 - 00:13:45.119

our plan at that time was to go down and start a small um business and I would get it going. And then my dad would take over and then I could come back to Boise. At the time, I was working two jobs in Boise. I was

00:13:45.190 - 00:14:14.140

working at K B O Y Television Channel two and I was working at um um Mountain State telephone um um as a, a lineman slash um switcher, you know, but um um I left and took him to California and we opened a small take out Chinese,

00:14:14.150 - 00:14:32.710

take out kitchen. And um I had a lot of experience because for, you know, during my high school years, I worked as a cook uh at tea garden and I learned how to cook Chinese food. So we, we opened up down in the Bay area in

00:14:32.719 - 00:14:56.820

a place called San Carlos California. Unfortunately, my dad uh died in an auto accident shortly after we uh moved down there. So consequently, I ended up spending uh 15 years running uh uh the business and supporting my mom and my family. But um back, back to

00:14:56.830 - 00:15:17.609

the Boise area, uh thing is that uh when we were working at tea garden, it was uh it was quite interesting because uh um you know, as a it it it um was kind of the center of the Chinese area right there. The garden and the

00:15:17.619 - 00:15:38.599

bamboo garden and the Shanghai garden were pretty much the three Chinese restaurants in downtown Boise. Um But some of the people that work at the Shanghai low ended up um opening up a restaurant in garden city. And uh you know, and, and another one called the

00:15:38.609 - 00:16:01.630

Golden Dragon uh in Boise. And um uh I think there's a Golden Star in Boise also that was opened by one of the persons who was relatives uh of the people that came all from the three Chinese restaurants at that time. Um Harry Fong, which is

00:16:01.640 - 00:16:23.859

the father of uh uh Edmund. And um and his side of the family, he was the owner of the bamboo gardens. I, yeah, actually um actually I worked there for a few days uh when they were real sure of help on in one occasion and, and

00:16:23.869 - 00:16:48.979

uh Harry Fong, um his family lived two doors down from my dad's uh herbalist office. And in the same building was the hip Sing Tong, um, Association. Uh, this is the one that was on Capitol Boulevard. And, uh, so one day Harry fog came down and

00:16:49.580 - 00:17:19.879

a asked me if, um, you know what? I, excuse me a second. Sorry, sorry, Dick. I'm on a Zoom call, right? Ok. I'm talking to Travis from Boise. All right. Bye bye. Sorry, Travis. That was my brother. No, I'm sorry, I'm sorry that, uh, we scheduled

00:17:19.889 - 00:17:37.770

this at a time when he was calling and, and made you miss that. So I apologize. I I should have turned my phone off. But I'm sorry. Uh but anyway, uh you know, I, I was uh talking uh about one time Harry came down and he

00:17:37.780 - 00:17:58.020

was really anxious because uh two of his people went sick and, and uh he asked me if I could just go down there and help one day. So I worked a day and a half of bamboo garden also. Now, Bill I, I, you mentioned Edmund Fong

00:17:58.030 - 00:18:15.030

and, and Kay Fong, um your sister and we had the opportunity to interview them recently as well and just based on, on your reflections of, of Boise and the Chinese population and community in Boise. And what and what you just said over the last few minutes.

00:18:15.209 - 00:18:35.552

It's would you say that there was a thriving community of Chinese in Boise? Because there seemed to be also some reflection or sentiment in the other interviews that there was a somewhat sort of tight knit circle. But that there was also limited opportunity and that around

00:18:35.562 - 00:18:51.686

the time that you're talking about in the mid 1960s or so that there started to be uh some movement and migration to places like California because of a lack of, of jobs because you mentioned the embargo with China and the difficulty of getting groups. So, was

00:18:51.696 - 00:19:07.719

it a time of kind of, was it a was it a difficult time during that time period? What accounted for some of that migration and movement at that time? Well, it was difficult for my parents because um they um the lack of Chinese herbs cut the

00:19:07.979 - 00:19:27.050

uh you know, I just got my dad out of his business and so they had to move because it was time for him to retire. Um And uh I don't know if you talked to Grant Yee, but his father um was an herbalist also. Um uh

00:19:27.060 - 00:19:44.760

I, I remember his name was Gun Hoy. Um But uh later on, uh they changed it to Ye. So it's uh Grant and Boyd in Virginia. They, they're still living, they're all still living in Boise. I don't know if you had a chance to talk to

00:19:44.770 - 00:19:58.439

them or not, not yet, but we've reached out and we hope to speak with them as well. But it was, it was, I thought it was kind of a tough time although I have to be honest with you when I was going through high school and

00:19:58.790 - 00:20:15.930

I went through a couple of years at, uh, Boise Junior College at that time as a Boise State now. But, uh, I, I actually, to be honest with you when I was growing up, I, I didn't realize I was any different, you know, I, I didn't

00:20:15.939 - 00:20:34.290

feel any pressure to be anything just that I was from Idaho. You know, I didn't, I didn't realize that I was different whether, you know that I was an oriental. But uh I, I, I noticed that when I was growing up and hanging out with uh

00:20:34.300 - 00:21:01.849

Edmund's younger brother, uh Raymond and uh um uh and James, I believe my, my mind is, my mind is uh kind of get forgetful now. But um uh I actually knew Raymond better than I knew uh Edmund. But uh Raymond, Raymond was actually a mailman and

00:21:01.859 - 00:21:19.839

he was uh I think Edmund's older brother and he and his wife, Elsa used to come to our house for dinner all the time, like, um but I uh Richard and James and uh they used to hang around with me and my brother a lot and

00:21:19.849 - 00:21:40.689

uh when we were kids, we played with them uh right downtown Boise near the office um um on um Capital Boulevard. And uh actually before I'm sorry, go ahead. Oh, I was just gonna ask you, where was your, your childhood home bill? Where did you grow

00:21:40.699 - 00:22:04.930

up? It was on age of screech. Uh, uh, I, it's, it's, um, uh, you know, if you go up, um, um, up toward Hyde Park from downtown and if you turn right, going up toward the Hill Street is for, and a, it's right at the base

00:22:04.939 - 00:22:24.719

of a, a small, uh, foothill. Yeah, we, we were, and then it was just a short five or six block walk to a long fellow elementary school. And then I went to West Junior High school and then my mother and father bought a house on Esquire

00:22:24.729 - 00:22:45.349

drive up there on the bench and I, I, I moved to West Junior High and then I went to Bora Bora High School and, and the family business was downtown on Capitol Boulevard mentioned. Yes, it was. Ok. Um But uh it was about, that was about

00:22:45.359 - 00:23:08.640

the third office that they had, they move around. Uh There used to be a brew brewery. Um I'm, I'm not sure if it's Burgermeister Brew uh beer or the Bohemian brewery. Bohemian bohemian. Ok. Yeah. Yeah. His, his, uh, one of his first offices is right next

00:23:08.650 - 00:23:28.780

to that because I remember we walk out in the street and there would be beer floating down there and down the gutter all the time. So it was just right down the street from the firehouse. Uh And, yeah, and um, uh it was only a couple

00:23:28.790 - 00:23:45.339

of blocks away from Fog Garden. Yeah, essentially where, where I'm sitting currently, you know, it's a city hall and I, I don't know how frequently you get back to, to Boise, but the current City Hall, which has been here since I believe the seventies, um, is

00:23:45.349 - 00:24:06.569

essentially where Chinatown was in. All. Ok. Good quote. So, uh, by the statesman, old statesman building, right across the street, right across main street. Yes. And, and it used to be, the police department was third. Oh, in a different direction. Yeah. Uh, there used to be

00:24:06.579 - 00:24:27.939

a police department there. Ok. All right. Well, yeah, I, I was just gonna ask, um, about you, you mentioned that you were, I believe the second youngest of seven. Is that correct? And you have you mentioned in your personal data record sheet? Thank you for providing

00:24:27.949 - 00:24:49.760

that. Uh, you have five sisters and four sisters are deceased. So, do you, do you have one living sister? Yes. One remaining sister and my younger brother. Yeah. There's only, what's the living sister's name? Martha? Martha. Yeah, Martha Martha. Yeah, I think, I think she sent

00:24:49.770 - 00:25:08.449

you back, uh, a note saying that she didn't know, uh, if she had anything to contribute or not. Sure. Yeah. Yeah, that rings a bell and that's ok. That's completely within her, right? So, um, on that note, do you have, uh, memories of, of childhood bill?

00:25:08.459 - 00:25:25.869

And maybe you mentioned a couple of, uh, elementary schools and junior high and things of that nature. Do you have memories of childhood and going to school things of that nature that you'd want to share. Oh, well, uh, yeah, I, I, uh, I know that in,

00:25:25.880 - 00:25:46.270

when I was in Bora High school, uh, I, I was, uh, real interested in, in trying to go out for sports and, uh, I'll have to be honest with you. I wasn't very good but, uh, I, I did, um, I did actually make the wrestling team

00:25:46.560 - 00:26:05.829

on, uh, when I was at, uh, West Junior high school. And, uh, then when I went to Bora, I, I tried out for football but I was actually not big enough and not fast enough and I tried being a, uh, a guard and, uh, I was

00:26:05.839 - 00:26:30.609

only at 1 60 160 lb and, you know, I, I just couldn't, I just couldn't hold my weight, you know. But, uh, I went out for, uh, um, I, I went for, uh, uh, the student body office and, uh, I lost the student body, vice president's office

00:26:30.619 - 00:26:50.300

to Carol mcgregor. I don't know if you know her but, uh, Barry Marcus was the president. He and I became real good friends and, um, the Marcus law firm is still working, uh, in Boise. So, uh, yeah, he, I spent most of my time in my

00:26:50.310 - 00:27:12.020

high school era working mostly at the restaurant, uh, at that time, uh, that was in the late fifties. Um, my dad's business was going down and so we all had all the family had to work. And so, um, that's when I started working at the restaurant,

00:27:12.209 - 00:27:32.979

uh, three nights or, um, three days a week I'd get off for school Friday. I work Friday and Saturday, Friday night, Saturday and Sunday at the restaurant. And then, um, during the week I'd go down there and, you know, help out also. Um, but one thing,

00:27:32.989 - 00:27:55.959

uh, I remember when I was a kid, uh, that kind of, um, uh, is interesting is that, you know, my dad had to revert to making a lot of his own liniments and rubs and, uh, medication. And, um, I, I remember two or three times that

00:27:56.329 - 00:28:18.560

he let me watch him collect, uh, rattlesnakes. Um, they, he would have a guy come in with a bag, um, gunny sack bag with rattlesnakes in it and they dump him out in the, the, the, uh, driveway behind the, the store and he would use a

00:28:18.569 - 00:28:38.500

hook and pick up the rattlesnake and pick it up by the tail and snap it like a whip and it was stun the snake. And then he, my dad and my dad would roll him around and put him in a five gallon glass container and we

00:28:38.510 - 00:28:58.479

put, well, maybe it was not five gallons, it was maybe 2, 2.5 or something. It was a strange size size, but he would put about a dozen rattlesnakes in that were alive. Uh, but stunned and then you put in all kinds of different herbs in there

00:28:58.760 - 00:29:13.869

and then you'd fill it full of whiskey and then he would, uh, put a, put a cover on it and seal it and put a date on it. And he said he'd have to sit for five years and then he would use it as a, uh,

00:29:13.880 - 00:29:36.459

a rubbing. Uh, um, he'd use it to rub on people's, uh, rheumatism and arthritis sources. When I was growing up, there was about four or five of these containers in the basement at all times. And um in the office on Capitol Boulevard, the, the toilet was

00:29:36.469 - 00:29:57.329

downstairs in the basement and my brother and I would have to walk down these dark stairs and reach up and pull the string, just turn on the light and there would be these rows of snakes in a jar looking at us, you know. That's incredible. That

00:29:57.339 - 00:30:17.760

was, yeah, that was, that was strange, you know. And, um, my dad used to take uh afterwards, you know, after the five years were up, he would take and strain it and he would put all this, um, this line in brown jars. Uh mm, maybe pint

00:30:17.770 - 00:30:33.290

or so and with a cork in it and he would line them up, he'd put Chinese characters on it and line them up on a shelf. And um if a patient needed it for their sores or something, he would get up and get up a jar

00:30:33.300 - 00:30:50.359

and sell it to them. Now, what was in those sorry bill? I was just curious, uh what was in those, in those jars that you just mentioned the line? Is that what you said? Yeah. The Lina that he would strain, he would, he would uh uh

00:30:50.369 - 00:31:11.130

he would, he would strain the, the, the alcohol uh Lina from these big glass jars and then he would throw the dead snakes and stuff in, in the garbage. I tell you, I, I imagine the, the people that the garbage had a heart attack every time

00:31:11.140 - 00:31:29.130

they, they came across something like that and, you know, with the dumps. Oh, I bet. Now, where was I, I've heard of this before, is that, um, people practitioners of traditional Chinese medicine who had transplanted, you know, moved, relocated to the United States place like Idaho,

00:31:29.140 - 00:31:47.270

for instance, would use uh substitutes, right? For maybe a snake that existed in China and they would use here a rattlesnake. Now, who, who would collect the rattlesnakes? And, and what was, um, what was the purpose behind having them to be alive? Was, was it, would

00:31:47.280 - 00:32:03.170

it be ineffective if they had been dead? Because he mentioned that they were stunned but still alive. Well, I think that my dad didn't want any dead snakes because he wouldn't, he didn't, he figured that if they had been dead, maybe they were starting to rot

00:32:03.180 - 00:32:23.920

or something like that and they would be, wouldn't be fresh I think he needed the venom more than, than anything. But, um, but I think that, I think that was part of the, the medicinal purpose of that. But I think that it, um, he might have

00:32:23.930 - 00:32:39.819

just been, might have been just ineffective just to cut the heads off of the snake and use that. But I, I'm not sure. I, I don't know, just, maybe that was how he was taught and, and that's what he, what he did. But I know, I

00:32:39.829 - 00:32:57.479

know that he would go on sometimes he would go up into the mountains and he'd come back with certain tree barks and, and plants that he would pick, you know, and uh of course, he was the only one that knew what he was picking. And uh

00:32:57.489 - 00:33:18.900

I know that he had, he had jars full of dried mushrooms that he would grind up. Uh and, and use the powder for something to, to, you know, do you recall bill, any of the um medicinal values or, or anything that your father may have passed

00:33:18.910 - 00:33:35.359

on to you or shared with you as to, you know, what these tree barks and roots and, and foliages and things like that were being used for. You know, I, I have to admit I, I was not interested in that when I was a child and

00:33:35.369 - 00:33:58.290

uh my dad and my grandpa, when, when they were talking together, they all the, all they spoke was Chinese and my uh at home, my mom and dad were, were fully invested in the idea that we had to become Americans. And that uh they did not

00:33:58.300 - 00:34:18.939

let us speak Chinese at home. They said you learn, you don't speak Chinese at all at home. But my, my dad and my grandpa would only speak Chinese when they were working together. And my, actually, my grandpa didn't know any English. Ok. And I remember a

00:34:18.949 - 00:34:36.000

lot of times I'd be at the office and there would be, um, a customer that would come in and my dad would take him over to the corner of the office and, and, and, um, he would put their hand on a pillow and he would take,

00:34:36.010 - 00:34:54.539

check their pulse, right. Put one hand on their p uh, the wrist and one hand on their neck and then my grandpa would just sit there and my dad would, would speak Chinese to him. My grandpa would turn around and speak Chinese back and my dad

00:34:54.549 - 00:35:13.590

would tell, uh, the person what the problem was and what they could do to, to fix it. And then, and then, uh, that, and then they would, a lot of times they would smell their breath, you know, they would, they would have them breathe in their

00:35:13.600 - 00:35:38.370

face and smell it and, and they would, um, um, another thing, oh, uh, what else would my dad do? Well, mainly, yeah, that, that's pretty much, uh, all I, all I remember at this time but, but then they would have the customer sit there, then my

00:35:38.379 - 00:35:54.939

dad would go back there and he'd pull out all these herbs and he'd take it and put it out on a piece of, uh, of, um, a paper. It looked like a big, big roll of paper, like butchers used to use. And he would put, um,

00:35:55.479 - 00:36:13.669

he would go way out with these scales, you know, Um, uh, he'd put different weights on the scale and then he, he would put, um, uh, different herbs until it balanced. He'd empty it into the, onto the paper and he would just do this, you know,

00:36:13.679 - 00:36:28.379

he'd go to different drawers and, and I don't know how he knew it, but he would just, uh, grab all the different herbs he would take and then he would take the paper and then fold it up and it shake it and then you put it

00:36:28.389 - 00:36:46.780

inside another paper, wrap it up, put a string around it and tie it and then he would tell he would, uh, take it out and tell the person how much to put in, how much water to how long to boil it. Uh, and then they would

00:36:46.790 - 00:37:04.000

have to drink this, how many, how many times a day they'd have to drink it, you know? And so that was pretty interesting. Yeah, it's fascinating. Um, and one thing that you mentioned stood out to me is that your father communicating with your grandfather um in

00:37:04.010 - 00:37:25.929

Chinese. And so it sounds like you didn't grow up speaking Chinese then Bill. Uh I couldn't, I grew up understanding a lot of Chinese but, you know, but in my youth, we didn't speak it. So uh my um uh Chinese was, is pretty basic. And when,

00:37:26.090 - 00:37:45.239

when we moved to California and I started the restaurant, I, I developed enough Chinese to be able to order goods from Chinatown. And uh and, and uh I could uh um go down to Chinatown and talk to some of the merchants and, and buy things, but

00:37:45.250 - 00:38:03.989

uh to hold the conversation, I'd be totally lost. Well, I was curious about that because it sounded like um when you were talking about pulse, reading, your father would converse with your granddad and your granddad would sort of relay information back to your father if I

00:38:04.000 - 00:38:21.879

understood that correctly. So does that, and you mentioned that your granddad didn't speak any English? So I guess the logic behind that line of questioning is, is basically um did your grand, do you believe that your, your granddad was kind of the um the master or

00:38:21.889 - 00:38:37.629

the expert in terms of the medicinal knowledge? And he was passing much of that on to your father or was it kind of a joint affair? You know, I, I kind of think it was a joint um conversation and, and my dad was just having my

00:38:37.639 - 00:38:59.629

grandfather, father con uh confirm because after my granddad left my, my dad did fine by us on his own, you know. And, uh, when they first started, it was my great granddad, my granddad and then my dad all together and I think that, uh, my dad

00:38:59.639 - 00:39:28.639

kind of deferred to the older, uh, uh, you know, physics positions and, um, and he probably did do on the job training a lot too, you know. But, uh, I, I remember my, my granddad was, uh, he loved his pineapple milkshakes. Yeah. And as kids, uh,

00:39:28.649 - 00:39:44.020

he used to give us a, uh, a big old silver dollar and we had run down to buy him a pineapple milkshake and we'd have about 80 cents left. I mean, and he would just give it to us and we went crazy, you know, and we

00:39:44.030 - 00:40:05.300

thought that was the mother lode. Yeah. Where would he buy the pineapple milkshake from her, or where would you buy it for, for him? No. You know what if? Ok, we were, we were on Capital Boulevard near, about a block away from the railroad tracks. Are

00:40:05.310 - 00:40:28.590

you familiar with that area? Yes. Ok. Um, there was a drive in restaurant across the railroad tracks, uh, about a half a block up. Ok. Yeah. So my brother and I used to run over there and, and, uh, and get, get the milkshakes or, and traffic

00:40:28.600 - 00:40:42.620

was not that bad that back in those days. Right. Yeah, I don't know how long it's been since you were, were back to Boise. But if I believe that the railroad tracks, um, were essentially where Front Street is now. So it would have been across Front

00:40:42.629 - 00:41:02.820

Street. Yeah, I said, yeah, we'll have to look that up and see who sold pineapple milkshakes on Front Street at that time. Yeah, that'd be interesting. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. Well, I, it's, it's just that, uh, you know, it, when we were kids, um, on the,

00:41:02.830 - 00:41:21.050

on the other side, uh, um, ok, Front Street is over here. The office is here and behind that used to be a, a gas station and I, one time I think it was a, what they call a flying a or, or something like that. And I

00:41:21.060 - 00:41:44.629

think it was a mobile after that. But, uh, as kids, my brother and I, uh, we shoplifted a bunch of candy bars from the, from the, from the gas stations, um, uh, you know, display there and my dad caught us, made us go there and apologize.

00:41:45.340 - 00:42:04.409

Uh, we had to go and clean, uh, we had to go clean the floor of the gas station a few weekends in a row and then, well, then we went home and my mom smacked us with, um, a wooden spoon. Oh, no. Yeah. Well, I, that

00:42:04.419 - 00:42:24.949

sounds, um, that sounds familiar and I think a lot of the Children went through something similar and, and learned the hard way. About, um, about shoplifting and, and honesty. Right. So, yeah, I think that's the last time I told anything. Yeah. You learned. Yeah. Ok. Well,

00:42:24.959 - 00:42:42.080

that's all really fascinating. I, so I, I do actually before we move on, have one more question about, um, your father and your grandfather's business and I'm kind of curious about the clientele. Um, so, you know, in the 18 nineties, around the time that my understanding

00:42:42.090 - 00:43:00.159

your, your great granddad was establishing his, his business in Boise, you know, the Chinese community uh was much larger uh in the nine, in the 18 seventies, 18, eighties, 18 nineties, you know, several 1000 Chinese individuals in, in and around Boise up in the Boise Basin

00:43:00.169 - 00:43:14.979

and things of that nature. So you could have as a physician as a practitioner, you could have a mostly Chinese clientele probably at that point in time. But it sounds like around the time that, that you were growing up, that the Chinese community was, was much

00:43:14.989 - 00:43:42.659

diminished. And so where was the clientele? Primarily non Chinese? They were almost exclusively Caucasian? Ok. Yeah, they, and oh, I'm sorry, there was a lot of basque people. Uh matter of fact, um um later on, I work for a basque uh person named uh John Oga.

00:43:43.080 - 00:44:04.649

And, and uh um he, he owned, he was part owner of the food chain market and uh his wife used to come in to my dad all the time too. And uh, my friend Barry Marcus, uh, told me a story about his, uh, great grandma. I

00:44:04.659 - 00:44:25.280

mean, his grandma. And she, she had a disease that, uh, all the, uh, all the American Caucasian doctors gave up on her and she went down and, uh, she got some herbs from my dad and, and, uh, after a while it, it, you know, it cured

00:44:25.290 - 00:44:46.310

her. And so there's a lot of stories, a lot of stories, you know, about uh uh the Caucasian people coming in and getting uh um you know, um tea for my, my dad and my granddad. Um Every time I go back to Boise, there's someone telling

00:44:46.320 - 00:45:07.520

me a story about one of their relatives that, you know, that went to a Chinese journalist. Too bad. Yeah. Too bad. That, that are not many more herbalist around, you know, I start to come back a little bit. But, yeah, yeah, traditional Chinese medicine as we

00:45:07.530 - 00:45:21.389

learned the other night as we were talking a little bit, you know, before we hit the record button about the uh the program the other night. Yeah, it's, it's uh certainly coming back and gaining in popularity and, and the um the individual who spoke was hopeful

00:45:21.399 - 00:45:41.080

that traditional Chinese medicine will one day be covered by insurance, which most insurances won't cover it now, you know. Well, I, I know that uh a lot of people are doing acupuncture now and um my grandpa used to do acupuncture did he? Is that right? Yeah.

00:45:41.959 - 00:46:00.610

Yeah. But I don't think my dad, dad did as much but I grand grandpa did a few times. It really seems like. Sorry. Go ahead. Well, I, I just remembered that I was kind of squeamish about it and I, I watched him do a couple of,

00:46:01.330 - 00:46:17.459

uh, you know, a couple of times and, and I, I told him I would never let him do it to me, you know. So, so no acupuncture for you, I guess. Uh, no, I didn't need it, I think. Yeah. Uh, yeah, it sounds like your, your

00:46:17.469 - 00:46:32.050

dad, your father as opposed to your grandfather was really more of a, of an herbalist at heart. It sounded like it sounds just from what you've mentioned that he was really enjoyed, um, and had a deep knowledge of botany really. And the native plants I grew

00:46:32.060 - 00:46:47.399

around here and what had medicinal value. And I wonder if, you know, and that was probably, I imagine through trial and error and things of that nature. But I did, was there ever any, uh, contact with any native people, native Americans? And was there any transfer

00:46:47.409 - 00:47:07.399

of knowledge in that regard? Not that I'm aware of? I, I, I'm really, I really wasn't aware of anything, uh, like that because, you know, I was, I have to admit that, um, when I was growing up, um, um, my interests were not in what my

00:47:07.409 - 00:47:25.850

dad was doing. We all go through that. Right. Yeah. And I, I, I'm really sorry about it now because I, I really wish that we had studied Chinese culture more when we were young and I really wish that they would have taught me um how to

00:47:25.860 - 00:47:45.229

speak Chinese. You know, my mom would have been a, a great fountain of youth, be uh knowledge. I mean, because she spoke, she spoke three language uh fluently and one language. Uh I think she said at one time she could speak five languages. But uh the

00:47:45.239 - 00:48:06.649

three, you know, now, so I appreciate everything that you've mentioned about um the business and about, you know, medicinal practice. I think that's all really great information I'd like at this point to sort of transition a little bit if that's OK. Sure. Um So I was,

00:48:06.659 - 00:48:22.550

I was reading through the newspaper and there's many newspaper articles that mention um your great grandfather C K A and one of them, I, I believe it was in his obituary mentions that he was a, a quote, a Chinese odd fellow and then also that he

00:48:22.560 - 00:48:45.600

was a member of the Boise commercial Club. Do either of those terms? Ring a bell to you? Well, I if, if they say if they're referring to a Chinese odd fellow, meaning a Tong. Um my great grandfather and my grandfather were the original um um founders

00:48:45.610 - 00:49:06.830

of the Hip Sing Tong in Chinatown. Yeah. And my dad was president of the hip sing to, for, for quite a while. And then he was secretary and, uh, uh, at one time the tongue was quite prevalent. Uh, there was two, I believe, two tons in

00:49:06.840 - 00:49:28.500

Boise. One was the hip sing and the other was the hop sing. Right. Yeah. Yeah, the hip sing Tong was the one that was located in the same building as my dad's, um, office on Capitol Boulevard. And, uh, uh, I remember we would climb up the

00:49:28.510 - 00:49:51.479

stairs and go into the Hip Sing Tong. And uh they had a big, big uh um display of, of uh Chinese artifacts on one wall. It, it was quite beautiful. I, I think they have uh uh are just, just depletion of, of that at the, at

00:49:51.489 - 00:50:10.840

the historical museum. You know, I think they show that and at one time at the Idaho Historical Museum, they had a display of part of my dad's office, but they recently tore the big display down in, in um um made just a small mention of it,

00:50:10.850 - 00:50:31.409

you know, but at one time it was a pretty good, pretty good display. Absolutely. Yeah. Um So circle back to, to some things that you mentioned the 50s it sounds like and certainly the 1960s where it sounds like a difficult time from your father's and your

00:50:31.419 - 00:50:46.409

grandfather's standpoint in terms of their business. And just from what you were mentioning, I think that the logic used to be that um urban renewal came and sort of pushed out a lot of Chinese businesses and things like that, which certainly was true to a certain

00:50:46.419 - 00:51:02.229

extent. But it also sounds like there was a decline before that, before some of the destruction of the buildings in, in Chinatown. And so I, I wonder was that related to the Cold War and anti communist sentiment? Do you think that people started to become more

00:51:02.239 - 00:51:22.530

distrustful or even more, um, prejudiced, you could say toward, um, the Chinese and maybe distrustful of traditional Chinese medicine at that time. Well, that could be a factor but I'm not quite sure. I, I, I couldn't, I, I couldn't tell you one way or another to

00:51:22.540 - 00:51:38.919

be honest with you. But I'll tell, I will tell you one thing. Uh, when my grandpa decided to go back to China, uh, he took back quite a bit of money with him and when he went back there, he found out that all of his family

00:51:38.929 - 00:52:00.199

had been killed by the communists and that, uh, uh, they, what they did is they confiscated all his money and my, my grandpa died, died in poverty, uh, because of the communist Chinese back there and all the time that he was gone, my dad would give

00:52:00.209 - 00:52:26.590

letters from his relatives back there asking for money and for years, my dad sent back what he could and we just believe that none of our family got it. It just all went to the communist government. But, um, and this was after your, your grandfather had

00:52:26.600 - 00:52:46.139

been, after, after he went back to China. Uh, and you believe that there was some impersonation of your grandfather. But you know what? I, I, I, I, I might, I say that, I think that, but that's only what I think. But, but, uh, I kept on

00:52:46.149 - 00:53:01.020

telling my grand, my dad, I said, don't be sending money back there. You don't know who's giving it. You know. But, but he kept on saying if there's a chance, uh, that my relatives will get it and they need it, you know. But I, I kept

00:53:01.030 - 00:53:21.169

on telling him it, you know, the way the communists are back there because we heard rumors that none of his family, uh, line survived that they all were, they all were killed by the communists. Yeah. At that time, um, um, millions of Chinese people were killed

00:53:21.179 - 00:53:42.219

by, by the Communist Party. It was a bad time. Yeah. Well, so you mentioned, um, growing up that you didn't feel like you stood out or that you were, you were different in any way and I'm assuming that you meant in that you weren't treated differently

00:53:42.229 - 00:54:02.750

or did I misunderstand? Was there, was there any prejudice or discrimination if you're comfortable talking about that growing up against you or your family? You know? Um, I didn't feel any discrimination personally. Uh, there was a couple of times when my dad was, um, uh, where

00:54:02.760 - 00:54:22.270

they thought he was Japanese that, that they gave a bad time at grocery stores and stuff like that. But, um, you know, during the war years, yeah, during the war years, uh, after the war, uh, and, um, uh, it was when I was younger and these

00:54:22.280 - 00:54:42.719

were stories that I heard from my, my mom and she kept warning me, uh, to stay out of certain parts of Boise, you know, which I, I, I'd never go, you know, uh, back in those days, uh, there were parts of Boise that they said that

00:54:42.729 - 00:55:01.030

were not safe for us. And I, I don't know what that means, but my brother and I were pretty much insulated from all that, but we went to good schools. We had good friends and none of us were uh discriminated against. But my dad was a

00:55:01.040 - 00:55:16.929

couple of guys when he was younger, uh, when, uh, during just after the war years, when they thought he was Japanese. I see. And you mentioned some places that your mother advised that you avoid in Boise. What, what parts of Boise would those have been? Do

00:55:16.939 - 00:55:34.270

you recall? You know what it was downtown? Uh, there were a couple of, uh, basque bars down there and this was when we used to spend a lot of times, uh, uh, at the office downtown and she'd say you don't go over to that part of

00:55:34.280 - 00:55:55.060

the town because there are too many drunk Basco. She was call them, call them Basco. Ok. But, but, uh, you know, I, I, I don't know, maybe that was just my mom's perception, you know. So, well, thank you. Um We, we touched on it a little

00:55:55.070 - 00:56:11.219

bit but I, I'd like to ask some questions about Chinatown in a little bit more of a, of a direct fashion if I may. Um, you know, generally, you know, first to start with, you know, basically what are your recollections of Boise's Chinatown? But then also

00:56:11.229 - 00:56:27.929

I wanted to discuss urban renewal a little bit and its impact on uh your family if at all, uh you may have been moved away to California by then. Um but it did, did it impact the Urban Renewal and the demolition of the properties downtown and

00:56:27.939 - 00:56:48.939

particularly in Chinatown, did that impact the Chinese community that you're aware of? So kind of a two part question there, you know, your reflections or recollections of, of Boise's Chinatown. And then also uh how might have urban renewal impacted the Chinese community? Well, you know, Chinatown

00:56:48.949 - 00:57:11.129

was a very small area even when I was a child, there was, it was only maybe 2 or 3 blocks. Um and it consisted of just the Chinese restaurants and the, the, the tongs, the hip tongs and two or three apartments where uh Chinese people resi resided. Um

00:57:11.139 - 00:57:37.389

uh So there was never, never, what I thought was a formal China town. Um, there were just a, a place where there were more Chinese um, uh stores and uh, uh Chinese restaurants. There were, oh, 12, there were three Chinese restaurants right in, uh, one area.

00:57:37.820 - 00:57:58.739

But, um, and, and there were a couple of Chinese stores and my dad had his office there. Uh Gun Hoy's office was actually on the bench, um, up there, uh, by a, there's a fairgrounds, I believe. But, um, I, I know that I know that when

00:57:58.750 - 00:58:23.169

it was kind of heartbreaking, when in, in where was it? 1965, uh, that they bulldozed down, um, the buildings down down on, uh Capita Boulevard. But, uh, anyway, um, when we left my dad's office still had a lot of, a lot of uh antiquities in it

00:58:23.179 - 00:58:46.879

and a lot of things. And, uh, 11 person from that was related to the historical museum, uh, actually went in there and saved quite a few artifacts from, from my dad's office and, uh, took him to the, the museum for safekeeping. Um I wish we could

00:58:46.889 - 00:59:06.949

have taken more when we moved. But, um, uh, it was kind of cumbersome because I drove down there hauling a little U haul trailer and there wasn't much room in, in the trailer for, for more than our personal belongings, you know. So, um, and, and so

00:59:06.959 - 00:59:27.320

you moved, you moved to California with your father in, in 1962, 65, 065. OK. Yeah. And, and if I'm not mistaken, I think the demolitions, I would have to double check, but I think it was around 69 or 70, 71 somewhere in there. But, uh, when they, when my dad left

00:59:27.330 - 00:59:44.479

his office, all he did is walk out the door and locked it and that was it. There, there was a lot of things in there that, uh, were, were quite a precious storm but, uh, he just couldn't take it with him, you know. Right. And there

00:59:44.489 - 00:59:59.639

was, yeah, and limited family and friends probably still in at that time to, you know, they'd be willing to bear that expense of shipping it out and that sort of thing. Yeah. Well, if they did ship it, we had no place down in California to store

00:59:59.649 - 01:00:17.300

it, you know, and, and funds were very limited at that time too. You know, we, we wouldn't be able to rent a place to store things and then if we stored it, what would we do with it afterwards? You know. So, you know, and my brother

01:00:17.310 - 01:00:36.860

at the time was just barely getting married and he didn't have, uh, the, the resources to, to, to store things, you know. But I'm glad that, uh, I'm glad that a lot of it ended up with the historical society. So. Right. That was, that was a

01:00:36.870 - 01:00:52.530

good thing. Right. Um, Bill, can you tell us about the, the tongs that you mentioned? You mentioned the hip sing Tong and the hop tong. Um Both of which, as you pointed out were prominent tongs in Boise. But could you just speak a little bit of

01:00:52.540 - 01:01:10.270

their to their significance? Maybe your family members or the Chinese community's involvement in them and sort of what they, they signified? Well, you know, my, my dad and my grandfather were pretty active in the Tong and, and, and, you know, I, everyone says it was a

01:01:10.280 - 01:01:26.929

secret society and stuff like that. But I think it was just more or less to help the, the Chinese people in the area and it was just a place for them to meet and uh to, to get together and, and try to um figure out uh

01:01:26.939 - 01:01:50.060

how to help different families and, and such, it was a benevolent society as such. But um I, I know that they had uh connections to San Francisco and my dad used that connection to, to buy herbs through San Francisco and then from San Francisco, from, you

01:01:50.070 - 01:02:09.199

know, from China, you know, herb would come in that way. And uh my, my dad did have a couple of relatives in, in the San Francisco area. And uh I, I'm not, you know, they'd have regular meetings there and they had some ceremonies and, and we

01:02:09.209 - 01:02:27.330

were just kids at the time and we weren't participating in any of it. So I, I remember I recognize the smell of opium now because I know that. Back in those days, my grandpa would, would have a pipe full of opium once a week. And uh

01:02:27.520 - 01:02:44.419

it was a big deal that me and my brother got to light his oum opium pipe for him. Oh, wow. Yeah. You know, it was a, quite a deal. It was a big old bamboo water pipe. It was made from a section of bamboo. It had

01:02:44.429 - 01:03:01.030

water in it and it had a spout drilled uh, a, a plug drilled into it where he had packed the tobaccos and the opium in it and we light it with, um, with a, uh, kind of like a, it was a punk of some sort. It

01:03:01.040 - 01:03:18.409

was a, you know, it's like a sparkler that didn't sparkle but it, it had a glow to it. You stick it out there and you get the little uh tobacco to start smoking and you would suck the, the smoke through the, uh, the water and then

01:03:18.419 - 01:03:35.169

you could hear a gurgle and then the smoke would come up and he, he would get it, he would smoke it, it didn't heal it. We, we, it would be a great conversation piece. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And a lot of history there too. Yeah. And there's

01:03:35.179 - 01:03:48.919

a lot of, you know, sort of negative associations and, and people at the time had, you know, placed a lot of negative stereotypes and things around the Chinese and their use of opium. But, um, what it sounds like there was, it was probably your, your grandfather

01:03:48.929 - 01:04:06.409

and your father, you know, in three generations of herbalists that there was medicinal, probably value to it. It sounds like. Well, yes, it's just like the fentaNYL today. Uh, and medically fentaNYL is a, a good painkiller, but on the street it's a killer, you know. And

01:04:06.419 - 01:04:31.100

so, yeah, I, I think, I think my dad and, uh, my grandpa, um, they, they had, they brought in opium but only for I, for me, maybe, maybe it was for medicinal purpose. But, uh, at one time it was not illegal, you know, I, I'm not

01:04:31.110 - 01:04:51.169

quite sure. Well, in, in any case, bill, the statute of limitations has passed, I'm sure. So, uh, well, that's, uh, this has been great. Um, so we're, we've been at it for about 70 minutes, so an hour and 10 minutes at this time. Uh, are you

01:04:51.179 - 01:05:09.590

ok to keep going a little more bill? Sure. Sure. I'm ok. A glass of water or anything like that. I have, I have water right here. So, if I need a job, you know, great. But, um, yeah, go ahead. But I, I have to tell you

01:05:09.600 - 01:05:28.409

that when we were growing up, my, my parents doted on us because they, they waited for many, many years to have, um, male members in the family, you know, after five females, um, my mom actually wanted to give up and not have any more, more Children,

01:05:28.419 - 01:05:44.469

you know, but I came along, I think I was an accident. And, uh, after I came, they were so happy to have a male in the family. They, they had, uh, my brother after that and to be honest with you, we, we were treated quite well.

01:05:44.850 - 01:06:03.489

Um, you know, I remember, uh, at Christmas and in our birthdays, even though the family didn't have a lot of money, we, we always got something, you know, we were treated very well and, uh, I think they shielded us from any of the unpleasantness that might

01:06:03.500 - 01:06:21.500

have been going on in, in the world at that time. But there were a lot simpler times than they had a, they're a real good friend with the Louie families who, who owned, um, who owned a farm in Garden City. Uh, Louis. Uh, Albert Lo, uh,

01:06:21.510 - 01:06:45.959

matter of fact, um, there, there's still, uh, some back there in Boise and Andy Andy. He's a pharmacist. Uh, yeah. And, uh, he's actually, I think the grandson of William Louis who used to be real good friends with my, my folks. And, uh, they, they would

01:06:45.969 - 01:07:04.620

bring, they'd bring baskets of, uh, vegetables and to our house all the time and, and, uh, you know, it was, our, our childhood was, you know, quite trouble free and, and, and we were raised, we were raised correctly. So we ended up, we ended up being

01:07:04.629 - 01:07:20.909

ok. I would say so. Yeah, it sounds like you had very loving parents, hardworking family and you stuck together and it said they gave you opportunities in life. And, um, sounds like it was a good household to grow up in, in a, in a great family.

01:07:21.570 - 01:07:38.280

It was and, and I wish I could give you a little more information. But, you know, my, um, my scope is pretty limited to, to the few years that I was invoicing because I left when I was, I think 22 or 23 years old. But I

01:07:38.290 - 01:07:59.419

just got, I just been through school and a couple of years of, of college and uh working and um, you know, it, it was just a um a crazy time. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I, well, I was just gonna say, I mean, I think that you've given

01:07:59.429 - 01:08:14.120

an incredible amount of insight into this time period, you know, and I, I really appreciate it. And as you mentioned, you know, just, uh living here for 22 years here in Boise, you know, you experienced quite, quite a bit and shed really a tremendous amount of

01:08:14.129 - 01:08:28.080

light onto the history of Boise here. Um So I really appreciate that, but I'm also interested in, you know, the life that you made outside of Boise and in California, um I'd be interested to learn about that a little bit, you know, in, in particular your

01:08:28.089 - 01:08:46.750

occupations. Uh I know that you were very successful. Um You mentioned uh working in radio and television here in Boise. But then you went on to, um, a ceramics, um, profession in California. Is that right? Yeah. Ok. Well, when, um, when I was still, when I

01:08:46.759 - 01:09:06.439

just barely graduated from high school I went to radio television school in Burbank, California. And at that time I, uh, received a first class radio telephone license. And when I came back to Boise, that's the reason I got a job with, uh Mountain State telephone because

01:09:06.839 - 01:09:27.029

uh every company that works with microwave and uh has to have a first class television license holder on, on the scene at all times. And um just because I have the license, but I didn't have the knowledge. They hired me just for the license and they

01:09:27.040 - 01:09:45.179

were training me to become uh uh to work in their uh microwave division. But um Mountain States had a rule. You just didn't go in and work at the microwave. You had to, you had to come in and train as either a lineman or you had

01:09:45.188 - 01:10:07.910

to work in uh in the uh office as the uh where they had all the switching, you know, um equipment. So I chose to work as a lineman. So I was doing that and then channel two needed a radio telephone license holder to, to, to work

01:10:07.919 - 01:10:24.629

their radio tower at night. Uh And so they hired me so I worked at night at the radio tower. Uh Not because I knew anything but only because I had the license. But then they brought me into the main studio and trained me, trained me to

01:10:24.640 - 01:10:45.180

be a technical director. And what they call a switcher, a switch is a person who, uh back in those days would switch from to film to slides to live television and work with the director, you know, uh on, on live shots. And they would tell the

01:10:45.189 - 01:11:02.609

technical director, which would be me that they needed a television. They need to start a commercial or they need to, to put a, a um, a slide on, on television or, or, or, or work a slide projector and, you know, whatever. So I did that for

01:11:02.620 - 01:11:22.990

a while and then my folks decided they want to move to California. So I had to quit that. I went to California. We started a Chinese take out restaurant and my dad uh died about, oh, not even 34 months into to that. So I ended up

01:11:23.000 - 01:11:43.750

doing 15 years of restaurant work, uh supporting my mom and, and um my, my family at the time and then uh my mom, my, my mom passed away. And uh so um at that time I, I got out of the, out of the restaurant business and

01:11:44.229 - 01:12:10.509

uh I, how old were you at this point? Bill? Let's see, 2:30, about 35 years old, 35, 36. Then I spent one year doing nothing but work. Uh I hadn't gotten a divorce at that time. And I was, I, um, my, my girlfriend at the time was a special

01:12:10.520 - 01:12:33.609

education teacher in Marin County. And so I was living with her and, um, I wasn't doing anything. So I started volunteering and working with, uh, special education, uh, patients. And, um, then I start, because I had a food background. I started doing fundraising for, for the

01:12:33.620 - 01:12:54.109

schools and for the associations and I work, work for the Marin County Center of Independent Women. And I, I put together two big fundraisers for him. And then um a place called Heritage House in San Francisco contacted me and asked me if I would be involved

01:12:54.120 - 01:13:14.220

in uh doing some volunteer work with them and, and be on their board of directors. And so I went on their board of directors and I was um actually involved in hiring the, the director uh for, for the, for the facilities. And um I, I worked

01:13:14.229 - 01:13:33.370

there for about a month or two. And then, uh after a while I just decided that I wasn't, I was kind of running out of money and needed something permanent to do. So, um I had a friend of mine who was a partner in a ceramics

01:13:33.379 - 01:13:52.899

company and uh he was unhappy, he was unhappy with um his, what his partners and what they were doing. He asked me if I wanted to go in business with him and I told him I had no idea of ceramics at all and what, what to

01:13:52.910 - 01:14:17.910

do. And so he arranged for me to go to work in a machine shop to work uh machine and ceramics. Well, I did that for uh about six months and uh I became the um night, night shift supervisor. And after that I decided I just didn't

01:14:17.919 - 01:14:33.939

want to be a machine machinist for a while. And I told him that if we're going to get into business, I better start doing more than just machining things. I better learn the, the technical um uh aspects of it. So I went and got a job

01:14:33.950 - 01:14:58.009

working for Apex Corporation in the ceramics division. And uh I worked there for about a year and a half um uh doing uh working in there, chemistry, ceramic chemistry department. And I, I learned quite a bit of uh about the chemistry of it then and then

01:14:58.020 - 01:15:24.290

um my partner and I, we teamed up with a, a third guy and we started a small business and our business was taking ceramics, metal, it braising it together with metal parts and making components for high tech industries. And um one of the first, one of

01:15:24.299 - 01:15:45.939

the first uh big jobs we got was from a company called General Dynamics. I don't know if you've heard of them but um they, they were building the Stan Whistle. And so uh so they contacted us and they had a problem because no one could make

01:15:45.950 - 01:16:09.580

this brilliant oxide um ceramic component uh uh embrace it together and uh for the guidance system. So we, we got their, all their specs and stuff and we, we developed a way to make this guidance uh package for them. And so we got a contract to

01:16:09.589 - 01:16:27.060

make this package for general dynamics. And they had a problem with the government because uh we were the only company that can make this package. But the government says you have to have a second source. You can never, never single source of uh uh uh a

01:16:27.069 - 01:16:52.890

component, a critical. Yeah. So we contacted another company who was making the frame to our, our uh package and we told them that maybe we would work with them uh to, to make the whole package if they would be um if they would contact General Dynamics

01:16:52.899 - 01:17:10.750

and, and go in as a subcontractor on this particular package. So we worked out a deal where General Dynamics bought 80% of the packages from us and 20% from this other company. But we actually made everything and we shipped it down to them and they did

01:17:10.759 - 01:17:31.549

a minor adjustment to it and sold it to um general dynamics. So that was our, that was our big contract that, that got our company on his feet. And so after about three years, we were, we were doing quite well and uh now was this sorry

01:17:31.560 - 01:17:51.509

bill? Was this um during the time was this around the time of the Vietnam war. Uh No, it was after. Ok. But, but the components that you were mentioning the metalized ceramic components, did, did you mention that those were used in guidance systems for missiles? It

01:17:51.520 - 01:18:13.859

was the package for the Stinger missile. It was a stinger missile. It was a specific package for the Stinger missile and it's, it's quite critical because it was in the guidance package, you know. And so, uh so actually, uh at the time, our third, my partner

01:18:13.870 - 01:18:30.910

and I and our third partner, the third partner owns 60% of the company and, and my other partner and I just own small, a small part. And so we, we were, we were kind of unhappy because my partner and I were doing all the work. My

01:18:30.919 - 01:18:51.149

third, the other partner was just kind of making all the money and, and uh so, um we decided to go out on our own and so we found another person that had a, a company that, that we could kind of get into with and, and we

01:18:51.160 - 01:19:12.770

could create it through another company. So we created a company called Micro Macro Metallics. And so I own 49%. Uh I mean, I mean, I'm sorry, me and my partners own 49%. And the third guy because he put in most of the money, he owned 51%. Uh so,

01:19:13.189 - 01:19:37.870

uh we, we, we did pretty well. We started making uh components for very incorporation. Uh We made what they call a photon generator and it's a ceramic package that shoots photons which um are the cancer killers. So, um it was a very specific package for, for

01:19:37.879 - 01:20:00.479

them. And then we, we worked on, we worked on um packages for um space Science of um uh uh company corporation. Uh and they sent a lot of our stuff into outer space on the Hubble telescope. And uh we made packages for a lot of satellites

01:20:00.490 - 01:20:21.529

and, and such incredible and it sounds like you were involved in some really fascinating and, and really sort of cutting edge work. Is that anything that you ever patented or, or sought to patent any of those component packages? No, because our company is such that what

01:20:21.540 - 01:20:41.589

we do is we take a concept that someone else is, is uh proven and then we take their qua qua, we take their prints and qualification and we build, we're the actual company that makes the product according to their specifications. Now, the photo photon generator was

01:20:41.600 - 01:21:03.560

a very incorporation design and they sent it to us and we actually uh built, built it to their standards and because of the technical uh elements like the expertise that's involved in metal ceramics and that sort of thing, right? That was our, that was our special

01:21:04.120 - 01:21:27.080

we metalized, we metalized and plated ceramics and we bonded them two metal components which were then braised or we brazed it to the metal components, then the metal components were, were welded to uh the, the guns and, and the satellites and stuff like that. I think

01:21:27.129 - 01:21:45.950

that would be like a molecular or chemical bonding process. Uh It's actually, yes, it, it, there's a lot of chemistry involved in, in metal, different types of ceramics because a lot of, a lot of uh ceramics have different, different qualities. And so you develop mize for

01:21:45.959 - 01:22:07.430

each different types of ceramic, each ceramic has a different coefficient of expansions and, and stuff. And so everything has to be um uh made to that particular ceramic. And uh there, there's, there's a lot of, a lot of things that have to be taken into consideration,

01:22:07.439 - 01:22:27.930

like when you're sending things out to outer space, uh the, the heat, the, the coefficient of expansion and everything has to be calculated such that they won't, they won't fail at the extreme temperatures that they're, you know, they're, they're uh of outer space and, and the

01:22:27.939 - 01:22:50.669

heater and, and stuff like that. Yeah, because you're dealing with extreme heat and extreme cold. Right. Right. Uh We, we also did a lot of work for Stanford Linear Accelerator and uh we, we got a government contract uh to build exciter tubes for their climbs for,

01:22:50.680 - 01:23:08.759

for Stanford. So we, we worked uh two years on that pro pro uh project Incredible Bill Bill. We're almost out of time. Um Of, of course, I'd like to ask you if there's, there's anything that you would like to add. But I, before we get to

01:23:08.770 - 01:23:23.189

that, I, I would, I'd be remiss if I didn't ask this, this one question, um, you mentioned that there was a lot of things that were left behind. I'm wondering in Boise, that is, I'm wondering if, if there was anything, whether it's records or documents or

01:23:23.200 - 01:23:39.120

artifacts or anything like that that you did keep or even photographs of your family, um yourself as a child, et cetera that you'd be willing to um to donate any records, photographs, anything like that. And I, and I'll also mention that we also have the capability

01:23:39.129 - 01:23:54.240

to um to scan photographs so that you could keep the originals and just wanted to throw that out there. Is that, is that something you might be interested in? I'll, I'll look, I'll look and see what we have. I, I um I think my sister Martha

01:23:54.250 - 01:24:11.799

has a lot more photographs than I have and, and uh but um my brother Dick may have a, a quite uh more too, but I'll, I'll look, I'll look and see if I have anything. I'll be more than happy to, to send it to you. Thank

01:24:11.810 - 01:24:28.069

you. Um You know, because the idea is we're trying to paint a picture here through these oral history records. But obviously, we also have an archives where we can preserve for posterity, documents, photographs and all those things and of course, we have the capability now with

01:24:28.080 - 01:24:42.600

uh our website and the internet and all those things to sort of curate, you know, um lots of different stories that have visual elements that have uh textual elements to them. So, if there's anything of that nature that you might be willing to share with us,

01:24:42.609 - 01:25:02.700

we would definitely be interested. So. Ok. Well, I'll look and see what I have and I'm, I'm really happy that, um, you know, she is doing this uh history. Um, and uh I, I'm anxious to see if later on, if you write, if you, if you

01:25:02.709 - 01:25:18.790

have a paper or, or, or if you, you know, if you publish anything, I'd be real happy to look at it, you know. Well, we would absolutely um be thrilled to have you along as part of that ride and, you know, not just the finished product

01:25:18.799 - 01:25:33.825

but, you know, to bounce ideas off you and things like that. And of course, you know, um having provided an oral history interview, you have the, you know, the capability to be involved in that and to anything that may be used and things of that nature.

01:25:33.834 - 01:25:46.654

So keep that in mind. But, um, you know, it also brings me to another point, you know, is there anything that you would in particular like to see come out of this kind of work? The interview with yourself, your brother, uh some of the other folks,

01:25:46.665 - 01:26:02.520

Edmund Katherine Fong. Um, would there be, would there, would there be a wish on your end a wish list, so to speak of something that you would like to see come from these stories and these interviews? Well, you know, I eventually, I, I kind of like

01:26:02.529 - 01:26:21.810

to read what Edmund and, um, uh, Gladys has to, I have to say, you know. Sure. Absolutely. You know. Yeah. If you, later on when you publish your book, I'd like to read it. Well, we're not sure that a book will come out of this or

01:26:21.819 - 01:26:37.049

whether it's gonna be an exhibition or a website or something like that. You know, that's why we're very interested to hear people's uh thoughts on that obviously for idea generation. But also so that you can have some say in, you know, the content that's produced from

01:26:37.270 - 01:26:56.200

the interviews that you're so generously, you know, donating your time and contributing to. Ok. Well, great. I've enjoyed this. Is there anything else Bill that, is there anything you'd like to add that I didn't ask about? Or that you feel like, uh we didn't cover? No,

01:26:56.209 - 01:27:13.819

I can't think of anything right now. I'll think of it when we get off the off, you know, but I enjoyed it. Yeah, I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it. And uh thank you for including me, Bill. I, I, uh I can't thank you enough. It's been

01:27:13.830 - 01:27:26.899

a pleasure. It's been a lot of fun. You've been a joy to work with. I really appreciate you getting everything to me so quickly and being so, um, you know, willing and enthusiastic to participate, it's really been a joy and a privilege. So I just wanna

01:27:26.910 - 01:27:45.080

say thank you. Ok. Well, thank you. Uh Travis. I, I think you'll enjoy talking to my brother. He's, uh, he's a lot easier to talk to. He's uh, he's educated. Well, you're, well, I would, I would there. He was, you're pretty easy to talk to and

01:27:45.089 - 01:28:02.250

you're pretty educated too. Right. Again, I just wanted to say thanks. It's been a pleasure. Um, if you come and visit your brother in Boise, feel free to get in touch with me. I'd love to buy you a cup of coffee or lunch. Sounds good. All

01:28:02.259 - 01:28:14.330

right. All right. Yes, I did. We'll do that. All right. That concludes the interview. Um Thank you very much. You have a wonderful day. Thanks. You too. Bye now. Take care. Bye bye.