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Ok, so we're now recording. Ok. Well, this is a video and audio recorded oral history interview conducted the 22nd day of February of the year 2023. The interviewer myself is Travis Jeffries History Programs Manager with the Department of Arts and History for the City of Boise,

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Idaho. I'm here on site at City Hall in Boise, Idaho. Both interviewees have provided signed legal releases and I have also signed the documents. Thank you, Kathy for sending those along. I appreciate that the primary purpose of this interview is to discuss Boise's Chinese and Chinese

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American population, Boise's Chinatown and how urban renewals, how urban renewal impacted Boise's Chinese and Chinese American residents. And of course, in addition to anything that you find relevant and wish to discuss, of course. So as a reminder, the role of the interviewer, so that's my role

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is primarily to listen and to facilitate the conversation. And according to oral history, best practices, interviewers are generally discouraged from offering their own thoughts and opinions. The primary goal is really to hear the opinions and reflection, a view of the interviewees. So you'll forgive me in

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advance if it seems like I'm being quiet or direct with my questions. This is just a normal part of the oral history process. It's just meant to really highlight you all as interviewees and not so much me as the interviewer. Um Now I'll also remind you

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that you have rights as interviewees you're agreeing to do, to do this out of the goodness of your heart and you have rights that we uphold and respect and those include the right or the right to pause or stop the interview at any time, you can

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withdraw from this project at any time and you have the right to refuse to answer any question at any point. Now, with that, if that sounds ok with you, should we proceed with the interview? Mhm. Yeah. The only thing is uh is there um way of

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uh uh down the road when this interview is all, is over, are we going to be able to see what you've written? I mean, uh oh, absolutely. What were you, uh, disgust and up record it, record it? Yeah, it will all be, yeah, it's a great

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question. It will all be publicly available. And also, you know, we'll have your contact information and if you would like copies of the things, you know, provided, it's not like a piece of public art that's installed and fixed in the ground or something, you know, it'd

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be hard to send you a copy of that, but we could certainly send you digital images and um anything that's produced or up on the website, happy to send you links to any of that stuff. Again, if I don't think any publications or anything will come

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of this, but maybe, and if they do, then we'd be happy to send you complimentary copies of that material. So yeah, it will all be available to you. All you have to do is, is, is ask and you know, I'll be proactive in getting copies to

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you of things that are produced and keep you in the loop of any programs that are upcoming because actually a lot of the programming that we do now again, thanks to the internet is available free to the public. And so we would obviously invite you to

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that and be happy to have you as participants and guests. Yeah. Well, I'm not uh too concerned about that part is the, anything that sort of personal uh private of uh past activities and stuff like that. I don't wanna be, get some information and use it

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for their own purpose. And, and with that especially not um getting my permission to write something that uh I didn't want uh coming out or anybody misinterpreting what I've said. So, yeah. Well, that actually brings up a good point is that um so we before anything

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gets distributed uh or made available to the public is that we produce like a transcript of the conversation and you have the right to review and to even redact or edit that transcript if you so wish. Yeah, that's what, that's what I wanna do. Ok, so

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I'll make a note of that. Ok, appreciate. Yeah. And we can, uh, send you transcripts and you can review those. Ok. Does that sound good? Yes. Ok. Ok. Forgive that pause while I just wrote that down because that's important. So I don't want to forget that.

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Ok. Ok. Uh, so here we are, the interview is taking place virtually via Zoom. I'm joined by our two interviewees. Um Could you please state and spell your full names for the record, please? My name is Edmund Fong. F O N G. First name Edmund E

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D M O N D. Great. And my name is Catherine Fong. That's K A T H er Y N F O N G. Thank you. And where are you two joining us uh from today? Well, it's my house. Uh I live here in Concord, California and

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uh I, I live by myself but I do have relatives around and uh that's it. Great. If comfortable. Yeah. No, that's great. Thank you. Um If you're comfortable, could you please state the names of your relatives such as your parents and grandparents? Well, my parents are

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both deceased and um people around me now, uh and my family, uh there's uh several people around this neighborhood uh whether uh not exactly here in Concord but could be, could be here in Concord could be in uh Richmond or close by. But uh you are

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Chinese around here. And uh, I don't know that where many am because uh I don't get out very much, especially now because uh I can't uh have difficulty walking and uh you wanna tell, you wanna tell dad's name and your mom's name? Ok. Well, sorry about

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that. That's ok. My dad's name is Harry W Fong and my mother was uh, uh, was uh grand grand a farm and, uh, both of them are deceased. Uh, both of them are, are, uh, buried in, uh Boise. And, um, but all I could say, uh,

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I didn't know my mother very well because, uh, she passed away, uh, when I was about, uh, about four or five years old and, um, wasn't interested in myself. But anyway, um, did have a, like I said, my dad was, uh, raised in, well, he was,

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uh, had a restaurant in Boise, Idaho and, uh, took it over, uh, took over the restaurant when I was, uh, just graduated from high school in Boise. And so, uh, for 10 years I spent my time, uh, working in the restaurant. Uh, he helped my dad

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because he needed a help from somebody or my family from, from my family would say, uh, it was kind of difficult because, uh, back then I didn't, I wasn't married yet and I was working seven days a week. So I didn't know that many people didn't

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get around very much but other than that, uh but all I can say at this point, yeah, you have a quick, you know, uh but uh that's the way things were back in, back in those days in terms of uh right, the way I was living

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and uh what I was doing in the, in the past. So just to put book ends around that, um our dad, Harry Fong um immigrated to the United States into Boise in 1911. Um he was about 15 years old and had studied at the Lincoln School

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which was out on Warren Springs Avenue. Um They put him into a third grade class and that's where he started to learn English. And after he learned English, um he became um kind of the community translator for the rest of the Chinese community in Chinatown. And

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uh became acquainted with um some of the lawyers and the attorneys and judges in, in the Boise Valley. And that's I think where he learned about the immigration laws. And once he understood what was required for him to qualify to go back to China to get

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married. Uh he became a merchant and uh set up a merchant Mer mercantile basically at 2 11, South Seventh Street in Boise, there was a article, a public notice in the uh I daily statesman that I found last summer that had the article about him opening

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up and getting his license for the mercantile. Um He went back to China in 1927. Is that when he, when he married your mom? So we went back to China in 1927. Um married Grata, her main name is Quan. Um that can be spelled K W

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A N. Um that's what's on our immigration paperwork. And then um they had uh four Children, Harry Junior who passed away at seven months. Then Raymond and Hazel and Edmund or Hazel first Hazel um, is the eldest of us all and then Raymond and then Edmund

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and after Edmund's mother died, my dad went back to China married my mom, uh, named her Alice and brought her back to Boise. This would have been 1930 something. Was it 38 37 or 38? Yeah. And, and, and then they had six more, six more Children.

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So, um, there's Richard, then Gilbert Robert Gladys myself and the younger sister Claudia and all nine of us went to central school and to North Junior High and to Boise High. All nine went to school right here in Boise. Correct. Mhm. Wow. Edmund went to Boise

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Junior College and it was just AJ C at the time and finished the two years there and then transferred to college of Idaho where he majored in accounting. Yeah. Now that must have been pretty early on. Yeah, it was that pretty early on in the, in

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the, in the days of Boise Junior College. Probably, wasn't it? Yeah, 1951 52. Right. You graduated from Boise High in 1950 1950. And I, well, two years in, in 1953 54 but I came back, started working again with my dad. But, um, like I said, I

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graduated from Boise High in 1950 June of 50. And, uh, then I went to, when I, uh, got out of service, I still went back to the restaurant. But, uh, in 1957 my eligibility was about to eligibility for a G I Bill uh for education, uh

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was going to expire in the uh three years, no, two, uh three years before, uh uh after my, uh uh uh the core of duty of duty, you'll have to excuse me because I'm at that age where I'm losing my memory and I can't remember. You're

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doing great. Yeah. But uh I start, uh B J C Butch Junior College in 1957 2 58 2, 58. And then, uh transferred uh my credits over to the college of Idaho in uh 59 graduated from there in 61. Right? And that, uh that came out

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here and that's it. Now, with regards to uh my article uh in the, uh I hold daily statements which I wrote because of uh uh there was articles uh written by various people about Boise and uh about the Chinese in Boise. And uh in particular uh

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that uh they're missing uh various things because of uh the uh other gen, younger generations. Uh, or my, I should say just my generation alone uh back in the fifties and all that uh that uh era, uh a lot of uh people passed away and uh

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don't, don't recall what you see Chinese history. And so uh I start reading some of the articles and uh, mm, side I crack on the uh information that was uh printed. This is on, on Facebook, right? Yeah, it's on Facebook. Yeah, it was about, we see

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uh Chinese uh activities and especially uh the uh a history of uh the Chinese uh our activities are in Boise. And uh I wanna make sure that some of these things that I learned about Boise uh uh about Chinese and Boise I let out because I

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experienced them and I wanna make sure that uh I want, I should say I don't wanna like to uh I like to let people know uh what Boise was like in terms of the Chinese there and what our, what our experiences were living in Boise in

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the States too. As far as that goes, it's primarily in Boise that uh uh that I wrote about because of the fact that I was born and raised here in Boise and in the uh basically I moved out here to San Francisco and to, to California

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to live and uh get married and have a family and that's what I did. And so, but his memories are the best if you ask him about the China towns in Boise, because that was before my time when Chinatown was on Idaho Street, it was before

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my time. And then something happened over the years where the Chinese moved down to seventh uh street, um where I guess the Grove Hotel is now and um our dad's restaurant was right in that neighborhood. And then about three or four other restaurant, Chinese restaurants were

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in that same area. So even with a population of 60,000, there were like at least four competing Chinese restaurants within a three block block radius. There was the my dad's restaurant, the bamboo gardens on uh capital Boulevard and Main Street. And then there was the Shanghai

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low, which was actually in the Chinatown complex where we grew up and then down the street was uh Fong's Tea garden and by Benny Fong and then a block away, the partners that used to partner with my dad opened the Golden Dragon and became a competitor

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against my dad. So that's was there was there also a chop suey restaurant? Did I hear you correctly? In a in the preinterview? The, the chop sign is actually the sign that was on our dad's restaurant. The the the outside sign that was kind of the

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what I call the marquee. It had chop written um horizontally and then on the building itself it was at the bamboo gardens. And then after, after our dad died, in 1962 we sold it to Albert Louis. Albert Lo changed the name to House of Louis. So

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that vertical sign became House of Louis, but he left the chop sui sign there. Great. Well, so I would love to um ask some additional questions about the restaurants and about food culture and about Chinatown in general. But um before I get ahead, too far ahead

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of myself, um I'd like to ask about your parents and your, your ancestors and where they, where did they come from in China? And do you have any sense as to why they emigrated to the United States and, and into Idaho in particular? Ok. So the,

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the history that I've been able to discover based on a couple of trips that I've made back to the villages, um the area that our parents came from is my dad is from uh uh a county called Hoing. So Hoying County is right up against Toan

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County. My mom is from Tuan County. Ed Edmund's mom is from Hoying. So dad went back to his village to marry Grata from his neighborhood. So he married a girl from his area and uh he was an only surviving child. All of his siblings had passed

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away from either um early childhood diseases or something. Um But he was an only child. Uh his siblings had passed away and his father had also remarried, it was his on lived his second wife. But um his father was the one who said you have to

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go to America. There's an opportunity and there were other Chinese, as I understand it, there was a large Chinese population in Boise and many of those people came from that Hui area. So through connections, word of mouth letters, I guess, you know, they said if you're

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coming, we have a space where you come to Boise and we could use somebody who's going to be, you know, young and you know, help the community here. So through connections, I don't know, I still haven't been able to find them. There's one name that I

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found in the Idaho Daily Statesman article about somebody sponsoring my dad from San Francisco. Um somebody named William Fong. Yeah, but I can't find any information on a lot of these names are, you know, they've been, they have Chinese names and if you know the Chinese

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characters, you can identify them. But when they get to the States, they rename themselves like my dad's name. When he came in on in immigration, he was and he was because the Chinese practices, the surname comes first, then the given name is after. So if he

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had not known that and actually educated the immigration people, we would have been Edmund fat and Cathy fat instead of fine. But fortunately fortunately, he, he was able to educate the imm people that his family name was Fog. So his father, I have the Chinese name

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for his father in my research. So if you ever need that, I can uh provide the Chinese characters for that. So he ended up in voice and and and again, this goes to either by communication through letters or word of mouth or village talk. He came

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through Seattle to bypass Angel Island because they were incarcerating the Chinese immigrants at Angel Island. He bypassed that by going into Seattle and then Seattle, I'm assuming he took the train from Seattle to Boise. And so settled in Boise with this as, as I understood, he

00:21:52.760 - 00:22:06.290

used to say there were thousands of Chinese in Boise. And if you go to the statesmen, you can see there must have been a fairly large community. They had Chinese New Year's parades. They had Tong wars between the hip sing Tong and the Hops. Tong. And

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our family association was kind of split because we, our family association goes by a surname Fogs, Louis and Kang were all one clan but there were others and the others also then, you know, you could belong to either a hip sing association or a Hop Sing

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Association. And those were the warring factions. A couple of statesmen articles that I found last summer indicated that there was a big enough battle going on between those two associations that their national headquarters from New York and San Francisco sent delegates to Boise to see uh

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negotiate a peace treaty among them. My dad at the time because he was fluent in English became the translator. But also the I would call it the pr guy or the communications contact for this daily states because they quote him in many of these articles. They'll

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say Harry Fong translator or Harry Fong, a member of the Louis Fong Association translated, you know, that explained that this is what was happening with the negotiations. So we knew that we knew that there was a fairly large population in Boise. And that's how my dad

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ended up in Boise was countrymen were there. And if you go in the cemetery um article that I sent you and some of the characters you can see the birthplace. It'll say it's either Hoan, the county my dad is from or Hui, I mean, is my

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dad and then Hoan was my mom. So those two, there's a lot of overlap between Hui Ping. And uh so those are, and those are all in Canton, Canton Province. OK. Um Now you mentioned the Tongs and you mentioned the hip Sing Tong and another and

00:23:53.489 - 00:24:10.979

that there was a rivalry. If not a, a what you call the Tong War, can you speak to either you or Edmund or both? Perhaps the Tong, what the Tongs were and what their, their function was in the community? And why was there this rivalry between

00:24:10.989 - 00:24:32.670

the Tongs? You wanna go first or you wanna go first? You're doing a better job than me. Well, but you, you probably saw more of it than I did. Um, so both from probably illegal, you know, gambling, you know, that was going on. Possibly, possibly it's

00:24:32.680 - 00:24:52.540

just power, it was power control, it was political, who had influence over the communities, both in, you know, the, the bigger communities in New York and in San Francisco, um the Chinese Americans created their own bylaws, right? They, they, they, they rules for interactions like so,

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ok, who is, who is doing all of the business with China and bringing in the imports, right? So all of the competition that was going on historically, um filtered down to the common people um trying to make a living. So, you know, who were the big

00:25:07.079 - 00:25:22.859

shots and who, who is making money and it's all about, you know, power, land and money. Um and, and because a lot of the American laws were foreign to them, they, they had their own rules and sometimes they would, you know, clash and so there were

00:25:22.869 - 00:25:39.270

these basically armed conflicts. Uh I don't know, I told my brother when I was growing up as a kid, we always boarded up our windows and our door, we, we grew up in the store that my father ran as a mercantile and we had these huge

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windows on seventh street and, you know, um we would have, they were boards that had been built to put up there and a bar put across. And I, I always thought, well, it was just for privacy. I, you know, I had no idea that it was

00:25:53.180 - 00:26:06.589

probably to prevent gunshots from coming in. Um, and then there was a bar across the door. Well, my sisters and I would, there were these holes around there and I'd look, and I'd put my finger in and wonder, I thought, oh, this is, you know, done

00:26:06.599 - 00:26:20.160

by a, you know, a bug or what was in there. And then I, I realized later there were bullet holes. Um because one of the articles I did find in the Statesman was uh a gunman actually entered 2 11 South Seventh Street when my dad had

00:26:20.170 - 00:26:33.939

it as a, a shop and there were other, other people in the store and some guy came in firing and they all ran downstairs. I mean, the reporter, well, my dad telling the reporter what happened and they documented it in this article where they ran downstairs

00:26:33.949 - 00:26:48.920

to the basement to get away from the gunman and the police were called and the police also then would find my dad who could explain what was going on. So that a lot of that is documented in, it's like the thirties, late twenties, early thirties, right?

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And would you say that the primary reason for your dad's employment with the Idaho Statesman was as this liaison to the Chinese community? But do you think that was mostly because of the statesman's interest in these tong wars and this rivalry between Tongs. Well, they didn't,

00:27:06.540 - 00:27:18.300

you know, there's, it was news because they'd get the police reports of some activity going on in, in Chinatown. And so who do you call, you call the guy who can speak English? And my dad was hired, you know, he was used as a court interpreter

00:27:18.310 - 00:27:33.930

when, when, when the police actually made arrests and people were brought to court, they couldn't speak English. So my dad was brought in as a court interpreter. That's how my dad got to be pretty well known among the legal community. In, in Boise. I see. Um,

00:27:34.310 - 00:27:51.599

now you mentioned the restaurant and your father owning, um working in a restaurant or owning a restaurant but also a mercantile. So were those distinct businesses? Two separate businesses? Yeah, it's a timeline when he first got, you know, into Boise and he became, you know, in

00:27:51.609 - 00:28:05.770

his twenties, I'd have to do the math on the years. But when he opened up the mercantile, it was basically because that's, he knew he then he could sponsor a wife to come from China. But um as the kids were being born, um I don't know,

00:28:05.780 - 00:28:19.989

he went, he ended up during the war going to be so you can talk about the Burle because he ended up with the Bluebird Cafe in Burly. And then after the war ended, he came back to Boise and, but I thought he still had a partnership

00:28:20.000 - 00:28:52.280

in, in the bamboo gardens. We did because back in those days, dad owned the equipment and, uh, was the original, uh, um, founder. Well, yeah, I guess you'd call founder, or at least he owned a business. The, the, the Russian itself was owned by somebody else.

00:28:53.010 - 00:29:18.540

The building, the building, the Frenchman. Right. Yeah. And, uh, dad was the primary, uh, uh, rent renter of the uh the property. And then he had uh the, the, the group of uh uh of uh Chinese working in the restaurant itself and they were partners. But

00:29:18.550 - 00:29:44.469

um over time um the other, all the other uh members of the party uh that ran the, the bamboo gardens, um they're all cousins or close cousins, closer cousin uh related to each other whereas dad was over to the side and uh but uh he had

00:29:44.479 - 00:30:11.300

to have help and he, he uh signed a uh partnership, this group of uh of uh Chinese. And that's how it started with these other people being uh uh co partners in the business. And then when my uh when I graduated from high school, my yeah.

00:30:12.560 - 00:30:32.750

Mm work in the, in the restaurant as the primary owner before, like I said they were all partners. Did they, they, they broke off themselves though, too to start the Golden Dragon, right? But uh this was at the very beginning to start with and during the

00:30:32.760 - 00:30:56.239

early, uh, in the thirties and the forties, uh, we were, we were still this one group but it was only after, um, you came back from, like, well, no, I was, uh, yeah. Right. Well, back in, back in the, be working for, I mean, living in

00:30:56.250 - 00:31:20.719

Berry it was still during the war and I was, uh, just a young kid. I had in high school in, uh, junior high school in high school then. Uh, well, I, I left, we left Boise, I mean, we left Burly when I was a, um, freshman

00:31:20.930 - 00:31:41.750

in, in high school. And then I came back and, uh, went back to the restaurant again. And it wasn't until after I graduated from high school that I realized, uh, well, my dad realized that, uh, he want to take over in a restaurant because I wouldn't,

00:31:42.030 - 00:31:58.890

I couldn't get a job at that one time just to, just to get what I got out of high school. And so, uh, by the time, uh, he decided to take over Russia, I'd already found a job, but, uh, he needed the help. So, told me

00:31:59.520 - 00:32:21.199

I had to help him. And so that's what I did. And I was the, I ended up being the only of our family that, uh, worked in the restaurant all, all those years and, uh, helped up as much as possible with my dad. I have a

00:32:21.209 - 00:32:37.479

older brother, Ray, but he got married and, uh, he had to, uh, get another job because, uh, he needed the money to raise his own family. Yeah. But he did, even then he came in on weekends and holidays too, you know, on New Years and stuff

00:32:37.489 - 00:32:52.729

like that. But, yeah. No, I, I, it's, uh, the Chinese American restaurant story where, you know, all of the kids in some form at some time, you know, have to pitch in and help. He had, he hired waitresses from outside and he had one old guy,

00:32:53.500 - 00:33:05.930

right, you know, one old guy, one old Chinese guy that would come and help too. But for the most part, the heavy lifting was Ed and my dad and then the other brothers, you know, they were in high school. So a lot of the actors were

00:33:05.939 - 00:33:23.670

on weekends. Um, you know, um mostly washing dishes and, you know, helping in that way. But yeah, you were the cook. No, you're the, you and dad were the, and mom were the main cooks. My mom, my mom um, worked in the kitchen and in the

00:33:23.680 - 00:33:40.609

dining room. Um, even though she had limited English, she would like sort of figure out what they wanted and, you know, work in the dining room too when she could. My older sister, my older sisters, both waitressed, my oldest sister, hazel, uh waitress at the Shanghai

00:33:40.619 - 00:33:59.170

low. Um and then my um my next oldest sister, Gladys and I both waitressed in, in the bamboo gardens. Uh, she started when she was probably 14. I started when I was 12. And I, I, I, well, because my, my younger sister and I, we were,

00:33:59.180 - 00:34:14.895

well, all three of the younger sisters, we were all doing the cleaning the celery and cleaning the shrimp and peeling potatoes and doing all of the behind the kitchen prep work and, and, um, for 50 cents a week as our allowance. And, um, I saw my

00:34:14.905 - 00:34:36.459

older sister, Gladys getting tips in the dining room. So I said I wanted to work in the dining room and at 12 got a uniform and went out to the dining room to start waitressing. Great. Um Yeah, that's pretty smart. Um So we, we, we talked

00:34:36.469 - 00:34:55.299

a little bit about the restaurant and it sounds like the restaurant was sort of was foundational to your family's livelihood. Um Now was this was this restaurant I believe I read in something that you wrote Cathy that this was or maybe uh one of your posts

00:34:55.509 - 00:35:14.320

uh Edmund that this was at 2 11 capital. So would this be where gold was? That was that was, that was the mercantile? Ok. That was the main Chinatown. So 2 11, that whole block of 200 was the Chinatown building. That was where the Hip Sing

00:35:14.540 - 00:35:34.229

Hong and the uh Fong family association to um uh altars were all of that was there. And then doctor a uh uh herbal shop was also in that complex and that's the building we grew up in. And the restaurant itself is where Goldie's is now. The,

00:35:34.800 - 00:35:52.820

um, at one oh 81 oh eight. Capital Boulevard. Great. Well, thank you. Um, so what are your recollections of growing up in Chinatown outside of, of working in the restaurant? But, but living there too, you must have a lot of memories of Chinatown in Boise growing

00:35:52.830 - 00:36:14.199

up. Does anything stand out to you that you'd like to share? Not particularly, um, all I did was uh uh work in the restaurant, uh, peeling potatoes and you're under, you're underestimating yourself. Talk about the Chinese New Year that you remember. That was something else again.

00:36:14.209 - 00:36:37.750

Uh, um, I think I've written some things about that in uh one of my, some of my articles but, um, early ages, uh I didn't know anything and I just helped out at the rest of most of the time, uh, especially after my mother passed away.

00:36:37.909 - 00:37:01.510

And, uh I, my, my sister, older sister and brother, uh, and I, the, the three of us, uh start working in a restaurant, uh helping out we, we can eat uh the other kids. All the, all the other kids uh came after us and of course,

00:37:01.520 - 00:37:20.879

uh they were too young to do anything. So it was the three of us that uh was working on our own uh separately, but we were working in the restaurant helping dad out or whatever. Whereas the others in the family were, I mean, the brothers and

00:37:20.889 - 00:37:43.250

sisters or siblings, uh they were still going to school at that time. But where were you living? And I, you know, to talk about Chinatown and what you did around Chinatown. Well, at an early age, all we did was uh my dad made arranges with his

00:37:43.260 - 00:38:09.139

partners. Uh so we could have a place to stay because uh the uh my grandmother, uh, not my, uh, had her own family. And, uh, so, uh, my dad, uh, my, my older brother and I, uh, start working in the restaurant, uh, in order to, uh,

00:38:09.909 - 00:38:31.189

eight and, uh, in return for doing that, uh, uh, we did the dishes, my brother Ray and I, uh, we do, did the dishes during the working in the restaurant and then, uh, especially on the weekends because we were going to school too. But, uh, after

00:38:31.199 - 00:38:49.510

that, uh, that's the way we were living, uh, that, uh, our, uh, livelihood came from, uh, working in a restaurant. What about, what about those, those memories you have of going with dad for those fish and the golf course. Yeah. Well, that's separate from now. Well,

00:38:49.520 - 00:39:10.689

that's what he was asking about your childhood growing up in Boise. Well, that was not necessarily, uh, my childhood. Uh, so I do, uh, I did do go fishing and hunting and all that but, uh, who took you well, start out with, uh, Ray my brother,

00:39:10.699 - 00:39:30.209

Ray, uh, he finally got a car, especially when he got out of high school and had a family and then bought a car and start learned how to, how to drive. And that was it for him. Uh He start going to, uh, he started working in

00:39:30.219 - 00:39:55.080

the laundry, uh, uh in Boise, uh to help uh take care of his family and, uh in the course. So, uh he was out that he was still worked in the restaurant with us, uh, uh, on weekends, especially because, uh, needed help. And that's where we

00:39:55.090 - 00:40:18.860

had, uh, most of our business, uh, especially in the, on the weekends. Uh But so how the hunting and fishing come about? Well, we decided we had to go somewhere and, uh, we Boise, uh, back in those days, Boise, uh, was a small town just like

00:40:18.870 - 00:40:42.750

everything else. Uh, uh, they had, I guess the population might have been around 10,000. This is probably the whole city of Boise, then expanded, grew. And, uh, that's how we got more Chinese there and more pop the population grew and that was back in the thirties

00:40:42.760 - 00:41:02.800

and forties. And, uh, that's it. But, uh, it was close enough so that, uh, we could, uh, if we want to go fishing, did we go down to the boys River? Well, we didn't have a car and especially the fact that, uh, we're still kids and

00:41:02.810 - 00:41:23.399

we walk down to the river or or the ponds at Julie Davis, uh, and fish in those ponds. But, uh, like I said, the rivers right there, uh, too. So we able to walk back and forth, uh, uh, to, to go fishing. Do you remember frog

00:41:23.409 - 00:41:55.659

hunting? Well, just off of the, the river on the other side of, um, a downtown or where, um, uh, ponds, uh, where, uh, Julia Davis Park? Well, no, on the one side is Julie Davis Park. On the other side was uh Chinese farmlands. And right next

00:41:55.669 - 00:42:29.959

to just on the other side of the river, they had uh that's where uh they had a bunch of uh uh there were a swamp area and uh uh where uh where trash fish grew love you. Yeah. And used to go fish, uh catch frogs from

00:42:29.969 - 00:42:48.810

those uh those ponds. But uh that was just a way to walk. That's all to, to do our sports. Yeah. So, so I'll, I'll refresh his memory too on some of that because when we were um growing up in Chinatown, um as I said, there were

00:42:48.820 - 00:43:03.729

six more kids when my dad married my mom. So Edmund and Raymond and Hazel did live with other families and then actually was upstairs in the hip sing building for a while. They had a room up there. Um And then he also had a room at

00:43:03.739 - 00:43:18.620

the restaurant. So that's where as little kids we'd go hang out with him in his room um but he would also sneak us out for movies. When you know, Disney movie came into town, he would be the one to take us to see, you know, Cinderella

00:43:18.629 - 00:43:35.830

or snow white and the seven dwarfs. Um he took us everywhere, you know, to the fair to the playground. We had pictures of him with my other siblings uh in the Julia Davis Park playground there, which was um walking distance from Chinatown. And so when we

00:43:35.840 - 00:43:50.090

wanted to be um entertained, that's where we would go to the playground at Julia Davis. That's when they had the huge metal slide that I'm sure is OSHA banned these days because it was all metal and in the summertime it was hot or people would go

00:43:50.100 - 00:44:06.439

down it with wax paper and it would be so slippery. Kids were getting hurt. But um he then uh when he came back from the army, that's what we remember. We were probably six or seven years old maybe, you know, and he came back and he

00:44:06.449 - 00:44:18.409

would make sure we were washing our hands and washing behind our ears and um, you know, keeping an eye on us. You know, he taught me how to use a knife and fork. The first time we went to an American family's house for a meal. I

00:44:18.419 - 00:44:30.510

didn't know, you know, use chopsticks at home for our family meals. I didn't know how to use a knife and fork. So he had to teach me how to cut the meat. Put the fork down, I mean, put the knife down and use the fork. So

00:44:30.520 - 00:44:46.270

lots of memories, you know, as, as the older brother watching out for the little sisters, he was, he was very good at that. Yeah. Uh, very nice. He doesn't remember. He claims he doesn't remember. But we remember. Um, sounds like so, I mean, we were so,

00:44:47.590 - 00:45:03.000

well, we were so poor. We did, we had so little, you know, when we were kids and, and um the restaurant was not a big money maker. And so at Christmas time after uh he was in the army, um he sent his army paycheck and combined

00:45:03.010 - 00:45:19.409

it with my sister who had moved out of Boise to work as a a clerk, uh typist in San Francisco to buy Christmas presents for the younger siblings. So Christmas in Boise wouldn't have been Christmas without that big care package coming from San Francisco from him

00:45:19.419 - 00:45:31.320

and my other sister. Um and then, you know, like I said, you know, as we, as we got older, it was like, um he was the one that was sort of keeping tabs on what was happening in the restaurant because the rest of us were still

00:45:31.330 - 00:45:47.060

in school. And then after my dad died, it was about the same time he left in 61. Dad died in 62. And that's why we had to sell a restaurant. There wasn't really anybody to take over the restaurant. But growing up, you know, we did have,

00:45:47.070 - 00:46:03.189

you know, a family associations. Uh Chinese New Year's was a big deal in um our family and in the community, um uh the, the women would do all of the Chinese pastries and cook the special dishes. Um And then we'd have these sort of an open

00:46:03.199 - 00:46:17.620

house in each of the family associations. So there'd be these big banquets that were kind of a pot lucky kind of thing where um a lot of the Chinese guys who could not bring their wives because of the immigration laws. Um they weren't merchants, they were

00:46:17.629 - 00:46:32.110

laborers, you know, so they didn't have the uh the uh paperwork to support, being able to get a, a wife. And so we knew all the intact families. I mean, all the kids, you know, the, the few families that were there, we knew them all because

00:46:32.120 - 00:46:48.850

there were so few of us. Um, you know, how would you say, go ahead, sorry, sorry to interject. But would you say that there were a large number of families or was that sort of, were families like yours sort of the outlier? And the community was

00:46:48.860 - 00:47:18.479

mostly bachelors and single individuals was, is, is that more accurate to say? Right? That, but these people that was basically because of the fact of, of immigration laws, right? And the Americans needed help uh working and uh it is cheap labor to, to have to, uh,

00:47:19.179 - 00:47:45.379

have, uh Chinese, uh, men come in into the States to work on the railroads or, or are you working in the, or, uh, farms, farms? And, uh, that's why there weren't that many families. I can tell you back in 1940 or thirties, the, uh, the only

00:47:45.389 - 00:48:15.870

Chinese families in Boise, there was, uh, one, two, two, a, a actually, uh, only two, two families that I could recall. Well, three, I take her back and that, that's, that's only one that uh had our, had families that, that came over to the States, right?

00:48:16.350 - 00:48:34.929

All the others were just bachelors working individually uh where they could find work trying to send money home. Some of them were married but they couldn't bring their wives over there. You know, families were in China. And so a lot of them. Uh yeah, go ahead,

00:48:34.939 - 00:49:00.550

Mr Feng. Well, they had a lot of the men have families back in China and they were never able to bring them over until after World War two. For a simple reason that World War Two opened up the borders for Chinese to be uh to, to

00:49:00.560 - 00:49:22.929

work together to uh fight the uh Japanese and Germans and Italians. Well, and also the anti uh Chinese immigration laws were repealed and then after they were repealed, they had quotas and it wasn't until after the war that they expanded some of those quotas. That's why

00:49:22.939 - 00:49:41.449

there weren't that many families, right. But this is, and this is also the time and we're, we're talking about the 19 fifties into the early 19 sixties when uh Boise's Chinese population was diminishing very quickly at that time is my understanding and there was a lot

00:49:41.459 - 00:50:00.689

of out migration or back migration to China, but also to places like California. And obviously, your family seems to have been part of that, at least moving back to California. Um What was the reasoning behind the move back to California or to California? I should say.

00:50:00.709 - 00:50:18.699

And was that something common? Did you notice that there was a lot of bois and, and residents of Chinatown moving from Boise at this time? I'll, I'll, I'll give my story, you can give your story. But um so if, if wi with nine kids and my

00:50:18.709 - 00:50:30.399

father and mother both say, if you're gonna get married, you have to marry a Chinese. Well, like you said, we could name the families and we, some of them were related and some of them were, you know, you couldn't marry a Fong, a lo or a

00:50:30.409 - 00:50:46.635

kwang, right? So that those were the intact families we knew of in Boise. So one year my father took Edmund to Idol Falls to meet the daughter of another restaurant owner. And so the they had their own network, our parents had their own network of, you

00:50:46.645 - 00:51:00.166

know, oh, there's a Chinese family in Weiser. So my sister was carted off to meet this family in Weiser or Ontario or, you know, Ida Falls. And so we said, hey, you know, if you want to go to a bigger population for more choices, you got

00:51:00.176 - 00:51:14.211

to go to San Francisco. So that's one reason for young people were sent to California. And, and the other reason is economically, you know, there was still, you know, discrimination, people don't want to fess up to it. You know, the ones who did stay behind had

00:51:14.221 - 00:51:31.912

their own businesses, like the Kwang family had the strawberry farms. Then they went into the um a grocery store, supermarket business and did very well. Um in our cases, you know, my brother, older brother Raymond stayed behind, worked at the post office. Uh My sister Hazel

00:51:31.922 - 00:51:55.080

said there's nothing for her in Boise and at least no Chinese boys for now for the purposes of the recording. I just wanna mention that it appears that he worked at the Ada Theater. OK. He was a uh during high school, he worked at the Ada

00:51:55.090 - 00:52:10.560

Theater and he was behind the Canon counter and the manager liked him. Are you still there? Are we recording? Yes, I, I believe we're still recording. I was just trying to jump in to say that it appeared that you had frozen for a time. But then,

00:52:10.570 - 00:52:24.179

and so I was just mentioning for the sake of the interview that it looked like the camera had frozen, but then you, you're back. So I think all is. Well. Ok. So my brother Bob, uh was working in high school at the candy counter behind the

00:52:24.189 - 00:52:38.419

candy counter at the theater and his manager liked him and wanted to promote him to the doorman, the ticket taker. And so he was there taking tickets when the big boss from Salt Lake came and the first thing he did was turn to the manager and

00:52:38.429 - 00:52:52.879

says, do you think it's wise that we have a Chinese boy at the front door? And that was uh that just about destroyed my brother. I mean, it was just so painful to have that. So, I mean, Boise was not necessarily friendly at the time to

00:52:52.889 - 00:53:08.189

Chinese. Uh I know, I just didn't know if you read the story about the last guy that was there. He lived in the hop scene building on front street as they were tearing down the buildings. Um and he refused to leave. It was a big story

00:53:08.199 - 00:53:22.175

in the statesman. Um What was his name? Oh, you're referring to Billy Fong? Yes. Yes. Yeah, he didn't want to move. And so these guys that had only known Boise as their home were, you know, suddenly said, hey, you know, we're gonna tear the building down

00:53:22.205 - 00:53:36.409

anyway. So a lot of us that lived in that building moved, you know, we had to go somewhere and if they were bachelors with no other roots in Boise, they went to San Francisco. So that's where we wanted to. Yeah. Sorry, I just want, I wanted

00:53:36.419 - 00:53:52.219

to dig into that a little bit more if you're comfortable with it because it does seem that discrimination sort of factored in, as you're saying, into some folks, decisions to leave. Boise. And you mentioned that Boise was not a particularly friendly place at this time for

00:53:52.229 - 00:54:11.860

the Chinese American population. So do you think that discrimination was widespread in Boise at the time? Anti Asian discrimination in particular? And do you think that that factored into um what subsequent developments in Chinatown relative to uh urban renewal and some of the demolition of the

00:54:11.870 - 00:54:29.189

properties there? Well, just before I forget, so brother Raymond wanted to marry one of the waitresses from the Shanghai low who was Caucasian. They couldn't get married in Idaho. They had to cross the border into Oregon to get married because of the anti laws in Idaho.

00:54:30.110 - 00:54:49.989

So, yeah. So you're right. So we're talking codified discrimination in that sense, right? Legal discrimination, right. But there is also, you mentioned some of this economic discrimination. Um, could you delve into that a little bit more? Yeah, we couldn't buy land, we couldn't own land. My,

00:54:50.000 - 00:55:08.750

my dad had gone to barber school but couldn't get a barber's license. Um So were you renting property? Was your father renting property to live in and to work out? Ok. Yeah. Yeah. And was prohibited from owning his own business or, or his own property, residential

00:55:08.760 - 00:55:22.659

property because of discrimination, do you think? Yeah. I don't know the year that the law changed because some of the other Chinese did end up buying homes outside of Chinatown at the time. My father came. Um, and for many years, no, he was not allowed to

00:55:22.669 - 00:55:42.550

purchase land. I see. Ok. Well, and on that note, um, I wanted to ask if you've, if you've, we've sort of established that there was discrimination and prejudice in, in this time period that we're talking about around the time that your family moved from Idaho and

00:55:42.560 - 00:55:58.429

from Boise, in particular. Um, have you noticed in your travels back through Boise or just keeping in contact and in touch with folks back in Boise? Do you think that things have changed or are we still dealing with those same sorts of problems today? Well, they're,

00:55:58.439 - 00:56:29.070

uh actually, uh the Chinese uh well, became uh more acquainted with the uh uh population, uh white population or Caucasians, I should say. And therefore, uh the discrimination uh wasn't as bad as, as before, especially considering the fact that uh the Chinese were, were, were allies

00:56:29.149 - 00:56:52.669

with Americans and the British and the, the other uh nations uh during the war. And it is because of the war or after effects of the war is that uh uh we became more um sociable, you might say, but there was still discrimination, uh, all that

00:56:52.679 - 00:57:16.449

time. In fact, uh uh when we were still, we were still living in, uh, be, uh, for those five years, uh, uh, during the time of the World War Two, that, uh, when we first moved to, uh, uh, uh, my dad had, had started the restaurant

00:57:16.459 - 00:57:42.239

there. He had to put up a sign that says this is a Chinese restaurant because on the same block where her restaurant was, there's a Japanese restaurant there and they were, people back back were, who lived in Berlin. A lot of them didn't know what was,

00:57:42.250 - 00:58:05.639

who was who and they were discriminated because they are Russian too. But eventually, so that's why my dad put up a sign and that, that's why uh, uh, it got separated. But, uh, oh, I had, uh, when the, um, when the World War Two uh contingent

00:58:06.639 - 00:58:30.010

in, uh, I, I don't know how they're able to, uh maintain that Japanese version because I don't think there's very many people who ate, uh, Japanese food back then, especially when you consider that about, uh, 5, 10 miles outside of Burle, there was a, uh Japanese

00:58:30.020 - 00:58:58.439

internment camp there and that didn't help any either. But, uh, that's how we, uh, gradually uh, became more uh sociable uh, or active. Yeah. Yeah, that was, it didn't matter between whether it be Chinese or Japanese or some of the others, the fact that in some

00:58:58.449 - 00:59:20.320

cases, uh they had uh Germans who were more acceptable than Chinese. Yeah. And that's, it sounds like it speaks to that anti Asian discrimination and particularly when you mention the the Chinese and the Japanese restaurants in burly being kind of confused with one another. It seems

00:59:20.330 - 00:59:38.889

that there was a lot of confusion and ignorance around the identification of particular groups of people at that time. You know. So um with urban renewal, it sounds like if I'm not mistaken, both of you had left Boise before the demolition and the raising that took

00:59:38.899 - 00:59:58.770

place in Chinatown. Is that correct? Yeah. My family was one of the last occupants of that building, you know. So, um my dad died in, in the November of 62 I finished my junior year that year and my mom that summer of 63 moved to San

00:59:58.780 - 01:00:11.685

Francisco and I convinced her, I said I have one more year um of high school at Boise High. And I said the teachers know me and I've, I've got to get a scholarship or I'll never be able to go to college. So she left me behind.

01:00:11.695 - 01:00:28.530

I stayed with my brother Raymond. And um that's when everything started closing down. They, they went in and locked up the building and they started taking stuff out. And um the demolition happened out. I left after I graduated in the spring of 64. And then, um

01:00:28.540 - 01:00:43.080

by then we, we made one last stop. My brother Gilbert, who had come to pick me up after graduation, we went into the house, the house, the building where he lived at any last minute things we could put into his car, but we had to leave,

01:00:43.090 - 01:00:59.429

abandon everything else that was still in the building. Some of that we saw years later, uh on display in the, um, the museum in Boise under China Town. And there were things that we had used, you know, that were part of our day to day lives,

01:00:59.439 - 01:01:16.570

um, were on display as antiques. And I, as I understand it, antique hunters also broke in and gathered up some of the stuff we thought was junk and now are selling them as antiques. But yeah, by, by then there was one other family, the, um, the

01:01:16.580 - 01:01:33.340

lo family, uh, I forget the dad's name but the kids were, um, Mabel Louie Jean Louis and I think Jean Louis is still around Wayne Louis and Betty Lou. I think there are about six kids in that family that were two doors down from us. But

01:01:33.350 - 01:01:48.729

then their dad, uh, opened a restaurant next to the Penny Theater on, I think that is that Bannock Street where the Penny Theater was. Yeah. Yeah. So there was a, a Chinese restaurant on eighth and Bannock that they had and they finally moved out of that

01:01:48.739 - 01:02:06.030

building. So the only person left in that building was Billy who was for around the block on front street right now. Do you have a sense for? I know it sounds like you had, had graduated from high school and left not long before the demolition happened

01:02:06.040 - 01:02:21.830

and that there was only a couple of individuals or maybe perhaps one family living in the building at the time. But do you have a sense for? And even from your vantage point, how did that impact your community, your family? How did it impact you just

01:02:21.840 - 01:02:37.870

knowing that that's where you grew up and it was now gone? Well, uh mixed feelings because that's, that was our home. But at the same time, it was a dump. It was, it was the ghetto. It was, we had no running hot water. I mean, the

01:02:37.879 - 01:02:48.830

only the reason he checked behind our ears to see if we'd wash it was because, you know, we didn't have hot water at home, but we had hot water at the restaurant. So he would take us to the kitchen sink in the restaurant and get a

01:02:48.840 - 01:03:05.500

wet towel and make sure we were scrubbed. Um, he finally installed a shower in the uh hip sing building upstairs where he'd had a room, he and his buddy Jerry rigged a shower up there so that we could go upstairs to, to bathe. Otherwise we were

01:03:05.510 - 01:03:20.330

taking baths in those galvanized tubs that they used for drinking these days at parties. Just the metal tub that we would, you know, boil water on a stove and pour it into the tub and that would be our bathroom. We didn't have a real bathroom. We

01:03:20.340 - 01:03:33.709

had a toilet set off from what we called the kitchen, which really wasn't a kitchen. It was just a room in the mercantile store that dad had put in a stove and a refrigerator and that was the kitchen and that's where the nine of us experienced

01:03:33.719 - 01:03:48.489

home. So when they tore it down, we said good riddance because of that horribleness. But at the same time, we have these memories. That was, that was, you know, where we had lots of happy times with, you know, our family now. So was this an apartment

01:03:48.500 - 01:04:02.770

that the nine of you with your father lived? Let, let me describe it to you. So it's a two story building, right? And it was, it was all one complex and somehow with a lot of doors and stairways that we could go from one end of

01:04:02.780 - 01:04:18.080

where we were living down to the other end, pretty much. All right. So in that building on that first level, you had individual storefronts because that's what they were, they were storefronts. So my dad had a storefront at 2 11, South Seventh Street had a sign

01:04:18.090 - 01:04:35.580

outside that said Harry Fong merchant and that storefront went all the way back to the backyard. So it was a, it was an elongated rectangle like you would see, you know, but it was all connected to one building. So, but in that storefront, what became the

01:04:35.590 - 01:04:52.659

quote living room, right? Was just what had been the storefront, the counter. In fact that he'd used as a merchant mercantile was still there. Some of the display cases were still there. My, I remember my mom storing her Chinese herbs and ingredients in some of those

01:04:52.669 - 01:05:13.419

cabinets. And then behind there where in a storefront you'd have a storage space for your goods. Those became our bedrooms. And my dad basically got uh sheet, it's not even sheet rock. It was the softer stuff than sheetrock to create partitions. So two brothers were in

01:05:13.429 - 01:05:28.929

one room, two sisters were in another room and another brother was in the the another quote room I slept with my mom in one partition. My dad had his own partition for his place and then it was the kitchen and the toilet. So, so that was

01:05:28.939 - 01:05:46.409

our living quarters, right? And so there wasn't enough room for Hazel Raymond and Edmund and when the six of us came along, so they Edmund ended up upstairs for a while. Raymond at 18, took off and got married and Hazel went to San Francisco after high

01:05:46.419 - 01:06:00.340

school graduation. There wasn't anything for us in Boise, you know, and then my brothers as they went off to the University of Idaho, the Richard, you know, graduated from the University of Idaho and he had been in R O T C. So he got his commission

01:06:00.350 - 01:06:17.429

to go to Germany. The second brother Gilbert graduated with his electrical engineering degree and got a job in California out of high, out of college, Bob studied architecture and met a Chinese girl in San Francisco and left for San Francisco to get married. So yeah, we

01:06:17.439 - 01:06:36.959

there was nothing, you know, economically or opportunity wise or reason to stay in any of the in Boise, we couldn't afford to buy, you know, homes there, not, not where we were, right. And you mentioned um that your, your siblings all went on to become educated

01:06:36.969 - 01:06:50.879

and find employment and all of those things. And I think in a, in a previous conversation, Cathy, you had mentioned that there are nine of you or were nine of you and all achieved the American dream. I believe you said, I was wondering, could you elaborate

01:06:50.889 - 01:07:04.540

upon that just a little bit and I know that you outlined their education and some of their vocations and that sort of thing. But maybe could you give us a couple of highlights of, of what you meant by that, of having all achieved the American dream?

01:07:07.469 - 01:07:25.199

Well, I think that because we all got married except for Gladys um and had families and have homes. We were able to buy homes. We we all own our houses. Um you know, and that that was important to you. Oh yeah. Oh yeah. After, after growing

01:07:25.209 - 01:07:40.229

up the way we did, I mean, we feel like, you know, we have a nice house, we have, you know, nice clothes, we have great food and, and, you know, we do have good memories of, you know, growing up as siblings and, and the things that

01:07:40.239 - 01:07:55.270

we did as kids. Um, you know, it's like, um, we never, I, I, I, growing up, I never told anybody in my school where I lived, you know, it was always, I like them to assume we lived in the restaurant and most of them did assume

01:07:55.280 - 01:08:05.860

we lived in the restaurant. We did all our entertaining in the restaurant. When I, when I, you know, like with my, my friends at school, they'd come home from school with me to the restaurant. My dad would fix a treat for them to eat. You know,

01:08:05.870 - 01:08:20.029

we'd always have these after school um meals that my dad would for me and my friends and so my friends loved it. You know, the friends I see when I go back for my high school reunions still remember the, the dishes that my dad would make

01:08:20.040 - 01:08:38.349

for them. It almost seems to me like just based on perusing some of the commentary on your, your Facebook posts, et cetera edmund, which are rich with, with the history of Chinatown and your reminiscences growing up. But it almost seems to me like there is a

01:08:38.444 - 01:08:54.214

between what people remember about Chinatown. Like there's a nostalgia there on the one hand and what you're describing on the other hand, which was that you were, you were frankly poor and destitute and, and struggling in many senses. Do you think there's any credence to that?

01:08:54.225 - 01:09:14.390

Any truth in that? Well, it was quite a bit. Well, first of all, let's put it this way. Uh, I didn't have very many friends back in those days because I was too busy going to the restaurant and working, uh, uh, cooking or whatever, uh, just

01:09:14.399 - 01:09:37.568

to live day by day. But, uh, other than that, uh, I didn't, uh, associate with very many people and that's why, uh, I heard the disconnect in it in the sense that, uh, I didn't have a, a friends, close friends like everybody else would have. Well,

01:09:37.579 - 01:09:51.519

and the friends you did have like Andy Lou, I don't know if you've got Andy on your list to interview but Andy Louie was, um, one of his best friends and, uh, uh, what's his name? Not, what was his name? The other, uh, young guy that

01:09:51.528 - 01:10:23.100

used to hang around with, what his name? Yeah. Lim. Mhm. He, he had come over from China himself and, uh, so actually he was, uh, um, he was a, uh, different generation, you might say in the sense that, uh, I was older than him and, uh,

01:10:23.169 - 01:10:43.470

he wasn't, uh, living in Boise at that, those early ages of 40 thirties, forties or even, I guess, is up in the fifties before he, I, I think that's when he came to the States. Yeah. So, so who is the other guy that helped you put

01:10:43.479 - 01:11:04.490

the shower in. That is uh jeez, I can't remember his name. Now, he, another Chinese kid. Yeah, I know. He lived in, uh, he lived in Hawaii, he lives in Hawaii. I'm not sure since the uh pandemic uh whether they're still alive or not. But, uh

01:11:05.169 - 01:11:25.009

it came over from, from uh uh from out of state too. I, you know what I think too. Uh, and, and uh we've kind of talked about this, the socialization, the three oldest kids were into survival mode really. And by the time the six of us

01:11:25.020 - 01:11:42.540

came along, we were more involved with school activities. My dad got more involved with school activities. It wasn't, you know, he, my dad volunteered with the central school P T A. So it was doing a lot with the schools and watching him socialize with the larger

01:11:42.549 - 01:12:02.850

caucasian population said, OK, well, yeah, we're one of them. We belong. And so it was as my older brother, Richard got into high school, got in, you know, Raymond played football and then Richard played football and ran track and um became, you know, very much a

01:12:02.859 - 01:12:19.790

recognized athlete in his school at Boise. And then when Gilbert came along, Gilbert was more academic, but Gilbert also had all of these brothers had gone into R O T C. Gilbert became the um I don't know what you call it now. Battle group leader or

01:12:19.799 - 01:12:33.560

commander for the whole R O T C group at Boise High, his senior year. So, you know, he had status there and he created, you know, it's sort of like as each sibling went through the same schools, the teachers knew who we were. The teachers are.

01:12:33.569 - 01:12:45.729

So, oh, another phone kit, you know. So the that time I, I and my younger sister came along. They had already already, I knew who their teachers were. Their teachers knew us because it was one more, you know, nine of his kids going through there. But

01:12:45.740 - 01:13:02.669

by the time it got to us, younger kids, it was easier to socialize. We had more time. Like I said, my brothers got into athletics, they got involved with school activities. Um I got very involved. I mean, I graduated the class of 64 which includes Scott

01:13:02.680 - 01:13:24.720

Simplot. Um and um of I'll think of his name. Um Oh gosh, I'm having a, a brain freeze. Our, our, our, our senior class president. Um you know, who also has a huge business in Boise. I mean, so these are people that um we were very

01:13:24.729 - 01:13:42.509

ambitious, we were very academic, we were very much involved with, you know, uh interaction. But having said that there are only two of us Asians in that graduating class, a Japanese American student and myself. So in my, in my 10th grade, 11th grade, civics class, Sorensen's

01:13:42.589 - 01:13:57.910

class when the civil rights movement was happening in the sixties in San Francisco and the R o demonstrations. We talked about the demonstrations and, and Mr Sorenson pointed to me and says, oh, but Cathy, we don't have that problem here, do we? You know, and I'm

01:13:57.919 - 01:14:12.990

sitting there as a 16 year old thinking, yeah, because there aren't that many of us, you know, I, we weren't a threat. Not as, you know, not as, like, even with blacks, there weren't that many blacks then. Um, but very few Asians. So, yeah, we weren't

01:14:13.000 - 01:14:27.020

a threat. So you believe that there was, it sounds like there was discrimination and there were additional barriers that you had to overcome. But there was a gradual acceptance because your family was recognized because Boise was a small town and because there was a lot of

01:14:27.029 - 01:14:43.850

you that with each sibling as they progressed through the school system, you gained acceptance through the fact that you'd been there in the school system and in the community for a long time. I'm not sure if it's that they accepted us as we became more confident.

01:14:44.240 - 01:14:59.759

I think that's more the, the issue is that I watched my siblings, you know, do it. And so I said I can do that too. And, and so I think that's, yeah. Yeah. No, I think, I think with Edmund's case, there is still this, you know,

01:14:59.770 - 01:15:15.270

you can be a stranger in a, in a strange land, um, depending on who's around and who, who you're allowed to interact with. And I think you know, at the athletics for the other brothers, uh, Richard especially got him introduced to a broader range of white

01:15:15.279 - 01:15:33.779

society. So, was the, was the other individual that you were, um, trying to remember, Kathy? Was that Skip Oppenheimer? Yes. Yeah. Skip, thank you. Yeah, I remember that the SIM plot and I was like, I took notes on that in the pre interview, so I pulled

01:15:33.790 - 01:15:49.000

those up. So, um, and Skip Oppenheimer was the gentleman that you, that you referenced. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, we've been chatting for almost an hour and a half. Now, I want to be respectful of the fact that we set aside an hour and a half.

01:15:49.009 - 01:16:04.120

So I don't want to go over that too much longer, but I also want to give you the opportunity to, to continue if you are comfortable doing so with a few more questions. But we're more than, it's obviously completely up to you if you'd like to

01:16:04.259 - 01:16:27.419

pause and stop now or keep going. Ok. I, well, ok, a little while longer. Not too much longer. The only reason I say that is because, uh, uh, I went to bed at around one o'clock this morning and I woke up at, at 22 30. Oh,

01:16:27.430 - 01:16:47.580

wow, 32 45. And I've been up ever since. So you're running on an hour and a half of sleep? Wow, that's about all. Ok. Well, it does sound like we should probably wrap up soon then. Um, oh, I might end with this line of questions and

01:16:47.589 - 01:16:59.870

I wanted to sort of get to and this will get to back to, um, which you had originally your, one of your original questions there, Edmund, which was about, you know, what do we plan to do with these interviews? Right. And part of it is just

01:16:59.879 - 01:17:19.259

to hear the story of folks who grew up in Boise and whose stories maybe haven't been celebrated or told as loudly or as audibly as some other folks', stories and histories have been. And that's certainly one valuable element to it. But you know, as to like

01:17:19.270 - 01:17:33.509

what the outputs are, right? And what we produce from this research and from these interviews is something is an open conversation and it's something that we'd be curious to know your thoughts on. And I did ask this of Kay and I recorded some of her thoughts,

01:17:33.520 - 01:17:47.799

which I thought were great. But I was wondering edin if you have any thoughts as to what you know, what if there was a message that came out of this, what would you want people to take away from a story such as your family's stories and

01:17:47.810 - 01:18:13.569

the story of Chinese and Chinese Americans in Boise. And what might that look like? Well, actually, uh if we're thinking in terms of uh the Chinese population um in Boise versus other places, let me say this, that uh when I came here to, to San Francisco

01:18:13.649 - 01:18:41.250

to live, uh, one of the places the first place that I went to was, uh, my brother-in-law had friends, uh, I mean, he had, uh, relatives here in California and one of his friends, uh, was his nephew that, uh, it's, that's in school here or, I

01:18:41.259 - 01:19:04.750

mean, I work here in San Francisco and he was the one who took me to the Chinese Baptist church here in, in, uh San Francisco. And that's where I met all my friends that uh Chinese friends were out here. And the fact that uh because of

01:19:04.759 - 01:19:36.660

that, but what I was saying, thinking of is that in the last few years to several years ago, well, actually, maybe a decade or so, um the church decided to uh have a gay, a group of stories about the uh Chinese in, in the church and

01:19:36.810 - 01:20:00.049

what their lives were like. And if you read the, the biography of some of these, most of these Chinese that were going to Chinese Baptist church, you'll find it that their education or their activities, history is similar to wine. All our Chinese, a lot of our

01:20:00.060 - 01:20:23.410

Chinese at the Baptist church live the same way. Uh and their activities were similar, I can show you the book. Uh and every one of them looks similar, they say that uh their parents were had this kind of life and they're doing all these things and

01:20:23.419 - 01:20:45.310

they just, they work in the restaurants. They're working in uh laundry, laundry store. Yeah, supermarkets, whatever you happen to know the, sorry that I was curious about the title of that book or, or the author, if you could recollect either of those, I got it. I'll

01:20:45.319 - 01:21:09.890

get it. Ok. Thank you, Mr Funk. Um Kay while Edmund is um unless you need to assist him. Yeah. No, he's good. He's get, get the stipulation going. That is. Yeah, you OK. Right. Go slow, go slow, go slow. All right. Now you had mentioned that

01:21:09.899 - 01:21:24.720

this article Kay that you sent and thank you again for sending that. Um I read it before the interview here. It was about the calligraphy on the tombstones and, and the cemetery, the Morris Hill cemetery. Um You mentioned that you wanted that sent to the Idaho

01:21:24.729 - 01:21:39.839

State Archives for preservation, which I'd be happy to to accommodate that. Um I also wanted to mention that we have um archives here. We have the Boise City Archives. So that is also an option and it's of happy to send it to the Idaho State Archives

01:21:39.850 - 01:21:56.649

or do both. Um whatever your preference is it OK. Yeah. No, if you can spread it and keep it archives somewhere. Photocopying is fine. I I I don't care about copyright. I care about somebody remembering that there were these people there that they came and they

01:21:56.660 - 01:22:12.629

settled in Boise and that is part of Idaho history. You know, there's a huge historical project going on with the Chinese in Butte Montana. And I sent that article to, I guess, I thought it was the executive director of the Idaho um Historical Society and never

01:22:12.640 - 01:22:25.919

got a response back. So I just want to make sure that somewhere people know that there was this history in Boise as well. The other thing I'm, I, I, I, I told Edmon I want to go up to Boise this summer um because I never got

01:22:25.930 - 01:22:46.470

out to the uh the society um facility out on Penitentiary Road. Uh the archives, archives. Yeah, I spent most of my time at the public library pulling off the Idaho statement, states statesman articles. But um there's one photograph or a document, a brochure that was put

01:22:46.479 - 01:23:04.419

out by the Idaho Historical Society um that had a picture of my dad with another man in the mercantile store where we grew up and they have his English name, correct. It's Harry Fong. But when it came to the Chinese characters, they did a um a

01:23:04.430 - 01:23:17.080

fanatical sound of Harry. And that and so I wrote his Chinese name and I said, if you're gonna use Chinese characters, use his real Chinese name, I sent it to him. Same thing. Never got a response back. And I just want to make sure that gets

01:23:17.089 - 01:23:32.720

corrected at some point. So that's why I want to get up there this summer. Just, you know, they, the names are there. Well, they're, they're there now. And I think that's one of the, the um the great values and utilities of the work that you did

01:23:32.729 - 01:23:49.040

is because, you know, tombstones as we know they fade and they um and the characters won't be legible forever, right? So I think it's a really valuable thing that you did to transcribe the calligraphy on a lot of those. And remind me now you said that

01:23:49.049 - 01:24:06.680

the calligraphy that the Chinese characters which you've taken the time to learn and to decipher, they refer to the provinces or to the towns in China from which the family members came. Is that correct? Both some of them, they start off with China, right? So it

01:24:06.750 - 01:24:21.500

says, and then it'll say Guangdong, most of them are from Canton. So it'll have Guangdong on there. And then after Guangdong, it'll get down to the county and then the town, some of them have the township, my dad's has the county, uh the township and his

01:24:21.509 - 01:24:37.020

village on it. So that was how I was when I went back to China to find his village. The characters on his tombstone helped me get there. Led you to the village. Yes. Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you had an amazing experience there. Um And

01:24:37.029 - 01:24:55.819

a very emotional experience it sounds like and I'll, I'll leave that to, to those who are interested, you know, viewers and listeners of this recording down the line. Um that is in uh Catherine Fong's article which is called from Canton to Boise. Is it not? Yes.

01:24:56.209 - 01:25:09.990

Right. And I would um encourage, you know, listeners and viewers of this recording to, to seek that out and we'll preserve a copy of that along with this recording in the archives because it's a very moving and informative story. But one more question on that, Kathy,

01:25:10.000 - 01:25:26.850

if I may, um where, where were some of the other towns or provinces from which people came as you could um from what you were able to tell of your research onto the markings on those tombstones, the majority were from. And so it's the same. Yeah,

01:25:26.859 - 01:25:46.589

that's why, you know, it's almost like they replicated their, their, their, their, you know, country ties in Boise. So, um the, you know, there are the exceptions like, like doctor A Fang married a woman that was from Northern China. Um What was her name? Kay's uh

01:25:47.069 - 01:26:07.790

English name, English name, Miss Mrs Mrs A was a northern from northern China. Was it? No, no, no. Uh Oh gosh. Yeah, I, I know it. I, I'll find it and I'll get it to you. But yeah. So Mrs A was from Northern and there's a

01:26:07.799 - 01:26:25.439

wonderful story about that family, the family in, in the uh statesman archives uh or in the pub public library archive, somebody did an interview with them. Um And that's how I found out their, their family name is not Fong. It's Chuck the, the family name again,

01:26:25.450 - 01:26:43.839

you know, and it, it's, his, the guy's name was, um, uh Chuck. Chuck was last name and then his, his, his given name was Fog. So that's why they call him a, that's how the name came about. That's not their surname. But it was again, an

01:26:43.850 - 01:27:06.040

instance of, of immigration officials reversing and not recognizing that the family name in China traditionally comes first. Correct. Correct. Yeah. So, so his, their name was Chuck. A Chuck. Yes. Yes. If you, if the eye is only just sort of like a missus or a mister.

01:27:06.180 - 01:27:24.865

So instead of, instead of saying, hey, you know, um Mr I'd say, hey, you know, it's, ah, it's just kind of a, it's a non, non honorific um phrase a title kind of a name. Yeah. Yeah. Well, it's like a breath before you say the name,

01:27:24.875 - 01:27:39.145

my mother when we were bad or we'd call her, she'd say, you know, my name is, but she's a, you know, it's, it's just the sound that comes out a, you know, it just comes out as kind of the uh the second part of a, hey,

01:27:39.154 - 01:28:07.939

you, you know, so I see. But here's the, um the book, can you see that title? Chinatown Stories of Life and Faith by James Chuck, editor with Roger Tom and Joy Xi. How do I pronounce the last G E E? OK. Yeah. So James was the

01:28:07.950 - 01:28:26.620

pastor, right? Yeah. So James Chuck was a pastor of the Chinese Baptist church. And Roger Tom ended up being a school principal in uh San Francisco. And I don't know, joy. I know Roger, know joy. Sorry, I neglected to sort of follow that thread through. So

01:28:26.629 - 01:28:41.600

I had, I had asked uh Edmund Mr Fong if you would, if you had any thoughts as to what might be produced from something like this, like these sorts of oral histories and family stories. And you mentioned in that book, is that something that you would

01:28:41.609 - 01:28:56.410

be interested in seeing come to fruition for, for Boise or for, I think what he, I think his point was, you know, you were asking him how he felt about his childhood and, and what his memories would, would say about his growing up in Boise and

01:28:56.419 - 01:29:14.620

what his comment was, he's finding that a lot of Chinese Americans have the same kind of experiences or memories, a similar story. I see, ok, most of the Chinese came from China and like I said, and the fact that uh what they did or what they

01:29:14.629 - 01:29:37.720

learned or how they're, how they were raised in China is what the his this history book is about, about the Chinese. Uh Now is any of that come through in your family traditions of your, your father's experience or your ancestors experience in, in China and in

01:29:37.729 - 01:29:54.669

southern China from which they came? And any were there particular reasons for emigrating to the United States? Was there anything in particular, whether it was political unrest or economic uncertainty, anything like that, that you're aware of that influenced the decision to come to the United States?

01:29:55.189 - 01:30:21.000

Well, I think the thing is uh especially the older uh countryman countrymen uh was the fact that uh it's economic because China was so poor and there's so so many of the population that they got the, they got the opportunity to come into the States to

01:30:21.009 - 01:30:42.229

work to send the money back home. And that's why uh so much uh so many of the uh Chinese immigrants were, were single males only in the sense that they couldn't bring their families over. And so I think they, they came over, they sent the money

01:30:42.240 - 01:31:01.359

home and it is only after World War Two that they were able to bring their families over, right? And that was it. And, and there's also the um like I said, word of mouth and stories that would get back to China about, I mean, they call

01:31:01.779 - 01:31:15.430

America Gold Mountain, right? It's, it's, you could, I mean, the image was you could come to America and you pick the money off the streets. It's so easy to get money here. And, and that was the belief that they all had. And I think our dad

01:31:15.439 - 01:31:32.529

when he got here, it loved it in a way that, you know, he learned the language. Um and he was very social, I mean, you know, with all of his parties at the restaurant with his friends. And, um, yeah, no, he, he, uh, he assimilated pretty

01:31:32.540 - 01:31:48.149

quickly, you know, to that. But he also knew how to be a bridge between the two cultures and introduced a lot of that to the Boise friends that he had. I mean, I, we grew up, I mean, we grew up knowing his friends, his friends watched

01:31:48.160 - 01:32:06.750

over us. Um, you know, we had a, when, when my dad died, the judges, Judge E B Smith, you know, wrote a letter to me about how important my dad was to, you know, um, the community. And, um, it was really, uh, very sweet, you know,

01:32:06.759 - 01:32:20.319

because I was alone in Boise and I knew it was my senior year and I went down to the local Pack Out drive in at the end of Harrison Boulevard. I don't know if it's still there. Um, but it was a little hamburger place right next

01:32:20.330 - 01:32:39.250

to Raymond's Place. And, um, we knew the owner from when the, um, oh, gosh, what are in the name of the Le brothers? The, oh, why am I having this brain thing again? The, uh, oh, the, the, the brothers that used to bring the produce to

01:32:39.259 - 01:32:54.959

the restaurant and then they opened the, the drive in restaurants. Um, the, I wanna say the something brothers, you know who I mean? Oh, gosh. Anyway, anyway, they, they gave me a job, I mean, they gave me a job based on my father's reputation. So we

01:32:54.970 - 01:33:11.700

always, everybody knew who Harry Fong was. Um, you know, when, when he had his funeral, it was at Saint Michael's Cathedral. Um, that the procession line was, you know, a mile long. Um Yeah. No, it was, it was, it was, it was, it was, he made,

01:33:11.709 - 01:33:24.100

our dad made it ok, growing up in, in Boise. Um, and, and we used to ask him, you know, well, why don't you move to San Francisco? And he said, because I'm a big fish here in, in San Francisco, you'd be a AAA little fish in

01:33:24.109 - 01:33:37.299

a big pond. So, you know, he was known, he was known in Boise and he loved, he loved Boise. He loved the four seasons. He did, you know, he would like it said, he, you know, he would walk to the playgrounds with us and, you know,

01:33:37.310 - 01:33:52.399

go for frog hunting in the lagoon at Julie Davis Park and, um, be in the parades with Central School. There's a, a photo somewhere in the States. I haven't found it yet. But, um, one of the themes for the central school parade was rubber dub, dub

01:33:52.410 - 01:34:06.000

three men in a tub. And he was the, the, the baker, he had a rolling pin and a, you know, chef's hat on. And, uh, he was in the float with these two other guys in this big tub. You know, it was three men. And then

01:34:06.009 - 01:34:18.419

he put my brother Bob and me in a boat, you know, in a uh in a parade that was a slow boat to China. And that's what it was called, the slow boat to China. And here is Cathy Fong and Bob Fong in the, in the

01:34:18.430 - 01:34:34.859

uh float in the parade. So, yeah, he, he made sure that, you know, he, the family was known in Boise. He sounds like a remarkable man. And um I want to thank you for sharing some of his story and some of your story, your family story

01:34:34.959 - 01:34:52.220

uh with us, it's incredibly valuable and um we really much appreciate it. I was curious about the letter that you, you referenced Cathy. Is that a letter that you still have the letter from the judge? Oh, yes. Yeah. Yeah, it is somewhere I had, I, I

01:34:52.229 - 01:35:08.060

don't know if I still have it, the letter from Senator Church as well. Um After I won the Voice of Democracy contest and, you know, because he had won the American Legion uh national uh speech contest. And when I won the Veterans of Foreign Wars National

01:35:08.069 - 01:35:23.870

contest, um the whole Idaho delegation in Congress was at the banquet where it was announced, I was the winner and it was so sweet to have the whole delegation, you know, rise up um to honor me. So it was, it was really great. Wow, what a

01:35:24.149 - 01:35:40.500

remarkable moment. Well, and I mentioned that Senator Church's in-laws were friends of my dad's, you know, the Chase family. Um, Judge Judge Judge Chase, um, was there Smith, were they Smiths as well? Chase Clarks, Chase Clark. There were, there were names that, you know, would float

01:35:40.509 - 01:35:54.129

around the restaurant at Chinese New Year's because dad would invite all these big shots to the restaurant for a Chinese New Year's banquet. Well, I imagine that those materials are very near and dear to you. Um But I would also mention that if you're interested in,

01:35:54.140 - 01:36:11.470

you know, in addition to an a recorded oral history like we're doing now, if you would be interested in sharing copies of those documents or anything for preservation, um For posterity, that's something also that we could help facilitate. So that's something that I could, that we

01:36:11.479 - 01:36:28.180

could help with if you'd be so interested. Well, and you can check in with Boise High. They've got a new trophy case, I guess there. And so I donated my gold record from the uh veterans of Foreign Wars contest to them to put in their. Yeah.

01:36:28.669 - 01:36:51.390

So you check with the principle there for the uh it's, it's, it's a round gold record that, um supposedly has my speech recorded on it. That's amazing. Well, is there anything else by way of closing that you would like to share? No. Yeah. No, it's been

01:36:51.399 - 01:37:05.379

fun. Yeah, it was fun because I learned some more stuff from him. Yeah. Well, I learned a ton and I'm sure that anyone who listens to this um in our day or in the future will also learn a great deal. And so for that, I really

01:37:05.390 - 01:37:21.830

want to thank you and um thank you in particular to Kay for everything that you've done to help facilitate this. And thank you Mr Fong for, for being a uh a participant and sharing some of your, your reflections on growing up in Boise. It's been uh

01:37:21.839 - 01:37:36.879

a lot of fun but also very educational and um just uh grateful for your time and I just want to say thank you. So I, I wanted to ask you um as well. Were you able to contact any of the other families that contact names? I

01:37:36.890 - 01:37:56.830

gave you? Did any of them respond? Yeah. So we've had some luck with folks who have responded. We've been in contact and done some pre interviews with Dick Aang and his brother, Bill Aang and a I believe her name is Janet Kyong. I believe you gave

01:37:56.839 - 01:38:19.580

that name. Is that an individual that you're in contact with in California? Oh Jane Yee, Jane Yee, is it? Yeah, they were the Yeah. What is other name? Um Doctor? Doctor. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And so we've had some luck and we have some um some other

01:38:19.589 - 01:38:34.799

interviews scheduled and there are some folks that you mentioned that we haven't received responses from. Um and we've followed up a couple of times and we might follow up one more time. Andy Louie was among, is in that category of folks that we were really interested

01:38:34.810 - 01:38:50.160

in hearing from but haven't heard from to this point. But that's ok. You know, I mean, we can't force people to participate. It's obviously something that they have to do voluntarily. And so we might follow up one more time, but we'd love to speak with, with

01:38:50.169 - 01:39:08.979

Mr Andy Louie, um, and anybody else. But yeah, thank you for providing some names. My sense about Andy is he's been interviewed by uh Boise Public Radio. So there is a recording already with him. Um Sam Huey was the one who I think linked him up

01:39:08.990 - 01:39:23.270

because they, the, the, the public N pr uh in Boise has also interviewed Sam on some things, but he introduced Andy and there's, there's an interview I know that exists on if I can find it, I'll try to forward that to you. Yeah, that'd be great.

01:39:23.279 - 01:39:35.819

And um yeah, we reached out to Mr uh Huey as well, Sam Huey. And um he might be in the same category. He's already given an interview. So he's like, oh, I don't want to do that again. And that's completely fine, you know, but, well, Sam

01:39:35.830 - 01:39:51.689

didn't grow up in, in Chinatown though. See, that's part of the thing too. He's, he's a later generation. He's younger than, than much younger than we are. So he wouldn't have been in that 19 forties to 1960. Period that you've been. Well, that's ok. I mean,

01:39:51.700 - 01:40:06.040

that's kind of our primary focus, but it's honestly anything about growing up in Boise, the Chinese and Chinese American experience in Boise. I mean, we're not just limited to the forties, fifties, sixties. I mean, we would, we would love to have a conversation with Mr Huey.

01:40:06.250 - 01:40:21.490

Um, if he would, if he would be interested. But, um, well, he's the one who put me in touch with you, so I'm not sure why he's being hesitant. Well, maybe we just need to follow up again, so. Ok. All right. Well, as I mentioned, I

01:40:21.500 - 01:40:35.290

will be sure to send a copy of the transcripts to you to review because it sounded like um Mr Mr Fong, you were pretty keen on uh wanting to review those transcripts. So I'd be happy to facilitate that. Would you like me to send it to

01:40:35.299 - 01:40:54.069

your home address? Yes, please. Ok, I can obtain that offline so that send it to, to uh Katie and uh she can send it to me and, and yeah, and we'll do that and you can be, you'll be free to edit it in any way that

01:40:54.080 - 01:41:12.890

you see fit. Ok, thank you. I appreciate that. Absolutely. Thank you. Well, thank you both. This has been wonderful. I really appreciate it. Sorry, I didn't help out too much. No, I think if you read those articles that he wrote for the Facebook postings are very

01:41:12.899 - 01:41:30.450

detailed he, he spent a lot of time on those and, um, really sharp memories in those too. Yeah. And those, those must have taken a lot of time. There's a lot of text there, a lot of memories there. So. No. Well, uh, when I start, uh,

01:41:31.990 - 01:41:52.399

uh, it wasn't too bad. It's, it's getting started that reason why I stopped because I run out of things to say. And so I don't know how, how much more I, I really know, but I don't remember. Yeah. Well, it happens to the best of us.

01:41:52.410 - 01:42:12.439

So thank you both. Um, have a great rest of your day and we'll be in touch. Ok. I thought of the name. The brother Hawkins brothers. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, they ran all the Red Steer and, uh, pack out restaurants and they, they own the

01:42:12.450 - 01:42:27.560

franchises for that, but they were great. We had a lot of great caucasian family friends. Yeah, great. All right, thanks Travis. Thank you. Have a good rest of your day. Take care. Thank you. Bye bye.